Worst built car ever (my model X)

[Electroman]

Every time another driver inflicts death, I will make this argument,

"Driving any car, the benefits are "shorter travel time", but the costs are "more fatalities", but it didn't have to be that way. Automobiles could have been released later, as would have happened in a quality first culture, and two million more people would be alive today. Was it worth it?"

Your dig on Musk sleeping in the assembly line is nothing to do with the quality of AP. That shows your negative slant and puts your opinions into perspective

 

[aesculus]

It's getting a bit off topic here, but perhaps we should start a thread to collect them.

Absolutely. I am enjoying the discussion but this is way off topic and deserves its own thread.

Moderators: Can we cut all this content on AP vs Non AP deaths into a new thread?

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

If Tesla can't get the easy things right, like the headliner, turn signals, trim, windshield, door latches, body panels, windows, spoiler, etc. (and that's just my car), unfortunately I don't have much faith that they gave got the hard things right. I can see visual defects, but I have to trust that there are no invisible defects, such as in the drive unit or software. The superficial problems my wife has seen have already scared her away from using Autopilot (a system which has a per mile fatality rate of 13x that of non-AP Teslas). I don't have much confidence in the hidden stuff myself.

People didn't use to get electrocuted in their homes before buildings were electrified. No one died in automobile crashes before the automobile was invented. Do you really want to go back to the days without electricity and cars just because they might get you killed? I think autopilot is more dangerous than without it, if used carelessly, but I think the responsible users aren't interested in going without. Darn it! Sometimes I feel like I'm so off topic. What thread is this?

 

[electricity]

Fun fact : 99.9% of people who think AP makes driving less safe don't have a Tesla.

 

[calisnow]

If Tesla can't get the easy things right, like the headliner, turn signals, trim, windshield, door latches, body panels, windows, spoiler, etc. (and that's just my car), unfortunately I don't have much faith that they gave got the hard things right.

I'm not sure the things you cite as "easy" are in fact easy. And what do you mean by "getting right" autopilot? Do you have a metric you'd like to share with us?

 

[Hengist]

If Tesla can't get the easy things right, like the headliner, turn signals, trim, windshield, door latches, body panels, windows, spoiler, etc. (and that's just my car), unfortunately I don't have much faith that they gave got the hard things right. I can see visual defects, but I have to trust that there are no invisible defects, such as in the drive unit or software. The superficial problems my wife has seen have already scared her away from using Autopilot (a system which has a per mile fatality rate of 13x that of non-AP Teslas). I don't have much confidence in the hidden stuff myself.

Sort of like judging a surgeon by the prettiness of the suturing.

 

[hill]

It's getting a bit off topic here, but perhaps we should start a thread to collect them. Tesla has crash stats for AP vs non-AP, but won't release the raw numbers, and I'm more interested in fatalities than crashes .....snip......

Isn't there a bit of "luck" with vehicle fatality statistics? Consider for instance that Toyota/Lexus has the 2 SUV's on the ZERO fatality list - the Highlander/RX-350 SUV's. Both of those vehicles suffered the same 'fatality causation issue' as the Lexus car (accelerator length sticks full throttle) that killed the San Diego county CHP driver training fellow & his family - and the defect caused many other injuries/accidents in other cars in their lineup.

Then there's the fatality-type accident that technically doesn't kill the person(s) but through modern medicine they live .... maybe 'just' live w/ burns over 90% of the body, or loss of both arms/legs ... maybe permanent brain damage / permanent debilitating neck/back pain - you or your parents, children, siblings. Fatalities are horrible, true ... but the statistics fails to acknowledge how much greater "great-length" injuries might be, that may cause horrible pain for decades to come.
.

 

[earlyretirement]

No idea!
I will find out! Been told the lemon laws don't apply to me. Also been advised by tesla people not to post on social media and be silent. They did to say anything about owners group. If they don't make it right, will see what my options are.

Hoping I don't have to post my videos on FB and YouTube.

This really sucks and sorry you have to go through it. I love Tesla but I agree with you that after spending that much on a car, EVERYTHING should be perfect. My model S back in 2013 I had to take in over 10 times in 3 years for various things including new drive train. So far my Model X is much better built but I feel your pain.

I don't think you should have to not post on social media or "be silent". What's that about? You take delivery of a crappy built car or defective model and you should be able to post wherever you want.

 

[bak_phy]

I agree with you that after spending that much on a car, EVERYTHING should be perfect.

People make that statement all the time and it's only potentially correct if you are buying a car which is usually much less. E.g. If you pay $150k for a 2016 Honda Civic it better be absolutely perfect. If you pay $150m for a formula 1 car don't be surprised when it breaks down in the first 100 miles.

 

[walla2]

So True. Expensive and perfect are not the same. Expensive means it costs alot. Perfect means its flawless. Nothing on earth is flawless as even a 5 carat perfect diamond may be covered in blood or cut to a shape that doesn't appeal to you.

They will work out most things to a high level of satisfaction if you can exercise patience or over time in the past they have done buy backs in extreme cases. Be wary of spreading too much hate though as the angry buy back strategy has only worked for that sleazy, sue everything that breathes case about using the door handles wrong.

 

[Electroman]

between $140K and $145K Tesla that has leather seats and rear jump seats as extra options, is there an expectation that the $145k car should be $5k more reliable?

 

[hiroshiy]

Why is @BToorani 's profile marked as spam?

 

[KaiserSoze]

Every time another driver inflicts death, I will make this argument,

"Driving any car, the benefits are "shorter travel time", but the costs are "more fatalities", but it didn't have to be that way. Automobiles could have been released later, as would have happened in a quality first culture, and two million more people would be alive today. Was it worth it?"

Your dig on Musk sleeping in the assembly line is nothing to do with the quality of AP. That shows your negative slant and puts your opinions into perspective

This really is getting off topic. Elon sleeping on the assembly line is simply evidence that a quality first culture does not exist at Tesla. So are all the Model Xs shipped to customers despite terrible quality problems easily visible on inspection. And so is shipping Autopilot with a known flaw (documented in the owners manual, even) only to hastily fix it after two fatalities.

And yes, shipping automobiles later could have prevented some fatalities, except that the fatality rate from using horses was seven times greater than the modern car fatality rate (see The Horse Manure Problem). The benefits from cars were clear from the beginning. The benefit from Autopilot was speculative, but the risks from a flawed implementation were known long before the decision was made to ship it. Hopefully with 8.0 the safety benefits of AP will finally come true.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Isn't there a bit of "luck" with vehicle fatality statistics? Consider for instance that Toyota/Lexus has the 2 SUV's on the ZERO fatality list - the Highlander/RX-350 SUV's. Both of those vehicles suffered the same 'fatality causation issue' as the Lexus car (accelerator length sticks full throttle) that killed the San Diego county CHP driver training fellow & his family - and the defect caused many other injuries/accidents in other cars in their lineup.
.

Only the 2010 Highlander had this issue, and the recall was announced in 2010. Thus very few Highlander miles were driven with the flaw. Generally, though, I agree that luck plays a factor. The sheer number of miles driven both with and without AP gives the evidence some measure of significance, though. Further, if you look at the types of fatalities seen on Autopilot, and examine the "camera can't see stationary objects flaw" that exists in AP, along with the "radar first fix" in 8.0, it is apparent that these fatalities were related to the camera flaw, and that delaying AP until 8.0 would have prevented these fatalities.

You're right in that only Tesla has the data covering non-fatal crashes. So far they have chosen not to release the raw data, but have sumarized it positively, as they spin everything. I am a bit suspicious of their methodology, as people only activate AP in the safest of situations.

 

[KaiserSoze]

Sort of like judging a surgeon by the prettiness of the suturing.

A surgeon doesn't have a chance to fix the sutures later, but car manufacturers can choose not to ramp manufacturing until the line is producing quality cars, and they can choose to not release the bad batches to customers, or fix them first. I've had only one new model year car, but I will say that I've never heard of a door latch falling in any car made, ever, before it did on my X.

Unfortunately I can tell you from experience that a good surgeon will have better sutures than a bad one!

 

[KaiserSoze]

What flaw was that - or do you mean limitation?

Pre-8.0 AP can't see stationary objects in the camers's field of view. As of 8.0 it still can't, but the plan is that eventually the radar will make up for it once enough data is available to whitelist false positives.

Secondly I need autopilot for its convenience even if it is not as good a driver as I am - and I am perfectly happy to accept some level of increased risk of death in return for the convenience. We make these trade-offs all day long and your personal line in the sand is arbitrary. Increased utility is absolutely worth some increased loss of life - our actions prove this.

I totally agree that life is a set of tradeoffs. However, the line is not personal, nor is it arbitrary. If there is foreseeable risk of injury and the fix is reasonable, you are legally (and morally) required to implement the fix. This is why you are required to fence your pool and why manufacturers are required to install airbags. Yes, in many cases there is no reasonable fix for a problem, so we tolerate the problem, because the cure is worse than the disease. That doesn't give anyone carte blanche in all circumstances.

Also, WRT Monday morning quarterbacking (which is what you are engaged in) you actually don't know what would have happened if AP was released later. You don't know if the lack of AP would have negatively affected Tesla sales - perhaps increasing quarterly losses, reducing investor confidence further, inhibiting Tesla's ability to tap capital markets again, preventing them from achieving the scale they need to become profitable and finally change the world.

You don't know this because you don't have access to an alternate universe in which Elon Musk executed and made decisions the way KaiserSoze would like him to.

All of those things may well have occurred, and those could be reasons why Tesla is deadline and not quality driven. I cannot know. The only thing that is certain is two fewer deaths. That's why I asked whether it was worth it, instead of claiming that it was, or was not.

Until then I'm calling you out for what you are - somebody blowing hot air about how he supposedly would have called the decision making in one of the most challenging corporate tasks in history - breaking into the automobile industry (if he were in place to call the decisions and were not just some hobbyist arguing on the internet with other people like me).

You sound very angry. I don't mean to offend. I certainly don't want to imply that I know whether shipping Autopilot early is necessary to break into the automobile industry, or whether the bad press from fatalities was worth it or not. Personally, I believe, based on my interpretation of the evidence, that the risk of death was foreseeable and that the remedy--a delay--was reasonable. That's just an opinion, however, not fact, and if you feel that is blowing hot air, I apologize.

 

[Hengist]

A surgeon doesn't have a chance to fix the sutures later, but car manufacturers can choose not to ramp manufacturing until the line is producing quality cars, and they can choose to not release the bad batches to customers, or fix them first. I've had only one new model year car, but I will say that I've never heard of a door latch falling in any car made, ever, before it did on my X.

Unfortunately I can tell you from experience that a good surgeon will have better sutures than a bad one!

Usually let the house staff close. .

 

[JPP]

Usually let the house staff close. .

....and then the sutures are wither too short or too long....

 

[Electroman]

Kaiser: this might be news to you.

8.0 will be better and more safer than 7.0. Perhaps Tesla should have waited.

9.0 will be better and more safer than 8.0. Perhaps Tesla should have waited.

10.0 will be better and more safer than 9.0. Perhaps Tesla should have waited.

 

[3Victoria]

n+1 will be better and more safer than n. Perhaps Tesla should have waited.