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Would you buy a Model 3 with no Battery?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by mikevbf, Jan 7, 2016.

  1. mikevbf

    mikevbf Member

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    The only reason Tesla has not already sold an affordable electric car is the cost and availability of batteries, hence the gigafactory. What if we were sold a Model 3 with no battery? What if we leased or short term rented the battery instead? Or even better what if changing the battery became as common place like the promise of those charging stations where we were supposed to be able to swap our battery for a fully charged one? Then we could pay as we go with the battery pack. That way the initial investment would be lot less daunting as would the insecurity around choosing the wrong battery size. It would also go a long way to future proofing the car. And Tesla is in a unique position to make use of outdated batteries in their up and coming energy storage business. Why isn't this already a reality in the Model S and X? I cringe as I spend a 100k on a Model X knowing the huge cost of the batteries might be worth a lot less by the time I want to sell the car.
     
  2. Ryan H

    Ryan H Member

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    No, I would not buy a Model 3 without a battery, for the same reason I would never buy an ICE car without an ICE. Without them, the cars become big paper weights.

    How would leasing or short term renting increase availability or lower cost? I'm not understanding your point.
     
  3. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    Leasing the battery means you pay for the battery *plus* administrative costs and the like.

    Since we're talking about Tesla, I might still buy one with battery lease, but it is certainly something I view as negative.
     
  4. Johann Koeber

    Johann Koeber Member

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    I hate leasing or financing. I hate monthly payments. That's just me. Income can fluctuate, what is fully paid for is mine. I like to keep my monthly obligations to a minimum. Buy when I can pay full.

    But I know many people don't function like that. And whole businesses are built around this fact.
     
  5. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    I can't see the point of purchasing a car and leasing its battery.
    Future proofing an EV battery is only one component and ignores all of the other things that get updated.
    Leasing a Model S in 2012 would get get you into dual motors, Autopilot etc etc after three years
    Leasing the battery would get you a whole 5KW :)
     
  6. tga

    tga Active Member

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    2 words: "Better Place"
     
  7. int32_t

    int32_t Tesla Spotter

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    Leasing is how the EV1 disappeared off of fans' driveways ... so no.
     
  8. Peter Egan

    Peter Egan Member

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    Based on reported costs, a 90kWh battery probably represents $15,000 of the purchase price. A 50kWh battery in a Model 3 may represent just $7,000 of the purchase price when it is launched. Separate rental of the battery would be like renting the ICE in an old tech vehicle.
     
  9. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    Exactly
    The pace of change for batteries is actually quite slow as is the degradation curve.
    For some, those 85-90K packs could outlast the car!
     
  10. mikevbf

    mikevbf Member

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    Here is a quote from an article on Musk's Battery Announcement:

    "Sam Wilkinson, research manager for solar and energy storage at HIS Technology, told Wired that he anticipates a 50 percent battery cost drop in the next two to three years."

    My guess is as the price goes down, we will see cars with larger batteries and longer range for cheaper. This makes the car we just bought worth much less. By owning the car, but not the battery we are protected against particularly poor resale value due to these changes in battery costs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    it costs 12k to go from 70 kWh battery to a 90 kWh battery for the Model S or X. Are you saying the value of initial cost of the 70 kWh battery is only worth 3k? Could you cite something for "reported costs" you claim for 90kWh battery?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Good point, but … I believe things are about to accelerate in battery storage cost reductions with the Gigafactory coming online and competition from companies like LG trying to supply the demand for the Bolt and other future electric cars.
     
  11. gigglehertz

    gigglehertz Member

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    I might, depending on how the numbers penciled out. Especially if it freed up capital up front to go all in with more options. It would have to have language that would guarantee a battery swap with the latest tech after so many miles or so much degradation.
     
  12. mikevbf

    mikevbf Member

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    Ok I see I need to change language here a little bit. Instead of the words "lease" or "rent" think "easy upgrade" because if the upgrade of the battery is built into the cost of ownership and the engineering of the car, it is much easier to get a battery upgrade for a reasonable price. It is almost like we need to get out of the car "ownership" mindset when it comes to the battery and think of the battery more as a "resource" we need to use as effectively as possible. i.e. if there is a better battery for the car you own and the battery in car is now better suited for grid energy storage, then wouldn't it be great if it were easy to move the resource to where it is most appropriate.
     
  13. Ryan H

    Ryan H Member

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    My answer is still the same. Tesla offers a lease option for the entire car. If they really want some of the older batteries for stationary storage or whatever, they would be able to do what they want with the battery once the car is turned in.

    I'm contemplating a lease. I've never done it before though. It would be nice to get a new Model 3 every 3 years or so. Maybe after the first 3 years, they'll be fully autonomous capable :smile:
     
  14. Stephen_Brown_II

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    #14 Stephen_Brown_II, Jan 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
    At least I know there is one other like me in the world.
     
  15. coco81

    coco81 Member

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    Here in Europe we have an automaker who dosen't allow you to buy the car battery, Renault. You pay for the car and you must rent the battery, there is no another option. You simply can't buy the complete car.

    The result is a really good product (Renault Zoe, a really good city EV) that nobody want to buy because battery rental (I was interested in the car until I heard lots of troubles from other owners and I read de rent contract...)
     
  16. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    You can buy the battery in Norway. That helped the sales numbers immensely.
     
  17. coco81

    coco81 Member

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    Norway... EV heaven. Sometimes I think car dealers and goverment hates EV here in Spain.
     
  18. JeffreyR

    JeffreyR Member

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    Frees up cash for other options
    Allows me to temporarily upgrade for long trips
    Car is lighter, more efficient, and nimble around town
    Lets Tesla sell more cars
    People who are lease averse can still buy
    Protects me against battery tech jumps

    Sounds like a nice option.
     
  19. Ampster

    Ampster Member

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    Mercedes Benz has an option with the Smart ED. I leased one 2 1/2 years ago and it was broken into two leases, one for the battery and one for the roller (car without battery) The total of the two was only $150/mo. I can purchase the roller at the end of the lease and continue the battery lease. The battery lease is mo to mo but if you cancel that lease you have to return the battery. Some of those leased vehicles are starting to hit the market at prices below my residual, so I may pick up one if the numbers are right when my lease expires. The battery lease is $64/mo but I don't know what happens at the 8 year warranty expiration.
    Nevertheless, it is an interesting approach to reducing battery degradation risk. The Smart has been a perfect complement to our Volt especially in our little Southern California beach town. EV'S get to park for free and we have 10 free charging stations throughout our one square mile city. We expect that a Smart will continue to be a complement to our future Model X for the same reasons.
    I do think the idea of a battery lease has some merit for the Model 3.
     
  20. mikevbf

    mikevbf Member

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    I am glad someone can state the advantages in a simpler way than me. After the response we have got here I particularly agree that leasing/paying as you go setups for the battery should be optional not mandatory. Your last point "protection against battery tech jumps" is the most important one imo. Thanks for your post :smile:
     

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