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Would you like to see fsd as a subscription option?

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And that, ladies and gentlemen is the reason why it should not occur. Lets face it... The structure assumes that every vehicle on the road currently has a HW3.0 computer. It also assumes that you have 8+ cameras to make it function properly. Only the last couple years of the S and X can every fully meet that criteria. While the 3 has the hardware, all 3 models (+ future) still have to contend with vaporware at the moment, so the revenue stream dies immediately, vs collecting the dues up-front at purchase with the promise of the software coming into reality in the future. This is a discussion to be had in a couple years when FSD is more likely to be a reality and a functional one at that!

Also, keep in mind that once FSD is up and running, the data streams will be essential to software improvement. The more people who jump on the bandwagon now, the more data will flow which will invariably improve the experience.

As a stockholder, the subscription idea is not currently a viable option.

I don't think that a subscription based system - IN CONJUNCTION with the purchased based system would do anything at all to their stock price.

I am a believer that most current Tesla owners would opt for the purchase option ( I'm not going to say why.....but ) - as I did. Others might like the subscription option.
 
Once FSD is a valuable product, subscription will likely be an option. Tesla will continue to spend money developing the NN for as long as I can think. They have certainly already spent the cash from all the FSD purchases so far and that's without a product! If Tesla wants to change the hardware model in the future then having a subscription model helps with that. I personally CAN'T STAND subscriptions and almost always prefer lifetime purchases when possible. But that's not for everyone.
 
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"Autopilot" as it stands right now is auto-accelerate, auto-brake, and lanekeeping assist.
It doesn't disable auto-accelerate or auto-brake when you change lanes, but you're choosing to disable the lanekeeping when you change lanes. Kind of a no-brainer there. When you enable your turn signal the lanekeeping/steering turns off.

LKAS with other manufacturers are far more usable. When you use your turn signals, it will allow the driver to switch lanes without disabling the steering assist altogether. It resumes LKAS once in the new lane. They also do not ding like an annoying seat belt sign on an airline when activated/deactivated. Having to listen to that ding every time I want to change a lane and then double push the stalk to reengage (and hear more dings!) makes it pretty close to useless for me.
 
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Definitely not in favor of subscriptions, but it might attract people who want to try before they buy.

At one time people could try out EAP for a couple of weeks, to decide if they wanted it. It would be very nice if new Teslas came with, say, a month of free FSD, which you could make permanent by paying for it.

However, this has an up-side and a down-side for Tesla:

On the down-side, people who might have bought it, but who don't like it once they try it, won't buy and Tesla loses money. On the up-side, people who wouldn't have bought it but find it really nice, will buy it, and Tesla sells more. Of course, before this works, there has to be something there. Right now, FSD is just the promise of a few features which will still require the driver's total attention for the indeterminate future.

Subscriptions work with constantly-changing services. A magazine that comes out once a month: You pay to keep getting it. An OS that keeps changing: You get the latest version. A music-streaming service or a cable TV channel: You get a constant stream of content. Driver-assist features are still in development, so a subscription could be justified as the price to keep up with the latest version. But once FSD is mature, and cars actually drive themselves, this just isn't the kind of thing we expect to pay a subscription for.

I suspect that Tesla is better off selling the feature outright. Selling something that you won't get for an unspecified time, with the threat that it will cost more later if you don't buy it now, is, IMO, shady. It's perfectly legit when Tesla did this with EAP because they delivered what they promised, at the time of sale. It's not legitimate when it's something that is still in development.
 
I believe they are indeed dropping $6k on FSD across the board.

love your posivity garlan g, but that's just unrealistic IMO. FSD will continue be a luxury feature (for those that can afford it) as dave noted, or perfect for fleets building robot taxis.

Don't forget that two of the top 3 selling cars have a list price of <$20k. (of course, no one pays list) It is impossible that Elon can get an EV with FSD that low to be competitive for the low end of the market. (The EV battery alone costs $7-8k to produce.)
 
Buy it for $6k means a subscription would be something like $150-$200/month? Probably more if just looking for a one month period. Not all that appealing I would think, but marginally more affordable perhaps. For real FSD, where the car assumes some liability, you'll probably be paying your $6k and a "subscription" to Tesla insurance. You can have both!

It only added $80/mo to the lease.

But I don't think they'd even need to go that high. With a subscription it's a perpetual income stream. Plus they could increase the price whenever they want if they got it working well enough to actually increase the value of the service. In fact they could actually cut it off completely if they get to the point where it it's fully functional and they want to keep it to themselves and their robotaxi service.

Making it a monthly service actually seems like the best way to go for something like this. A continuous income stream with a price that can be adjusted dynamically to match the value of the features available.

If they don't deliver something soon on what they've promised thus far they're going to be in trouble. People paid a lot of money for this up front with the promise that they'd get something in return. This could lead to lawsuits and other customer service issues. With a subscription the owner could decide month to month if the service offered them enough value to keep paying and they wouldn't have to worry about over promising and the backlash of not delivering on those promises.
 
love your posivity garlan g, but that's just unrealistic IMO. FSD will continue be a luxury feature (for those that can afford it) as dave noted, or perfect for fleets building robot taxis.

Don't forget that two of the top 3 selling cars have a list price of <$20k. (of course, no one pays list) It is impossible that Elon can get an EV with FSD that low to be competitive for the low end of the market. (The EV battery alone costs $7-8k to produce.)

FSD won't have to be a luxury feature for the elite - with a subscription.

If Tesla's goal is to get FSD in everyone's hand....then they should make FSD available in various ways.
 
I hear ya.... and I agree.....

I was just wondering what part of FSD you consider to be safety.

These are the only things Tesla lists as features of FSD. IMO they are all toys right now.

Full Self-Driving Capability
  • Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
  • Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
  • Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
  • Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really

I fully agree with Tesla that the concept of FSD is a "future" safety feature - when just about all cars can drive themselves.
I believe its excellent that "TESLA" is leading the way.

The problem I have with this is that this is what was sold with EAP when that product existed in and of itself. Now to get FSD for those who had EAP they have to pay 3000 more.

So let's go down history lane a bit.

Autopilot is standard with the car right now, unless you get a SR non-plus version.
  • Traffic aware cruise control (accelerate and brake)
  • Lanekeeping assist
EAP (no longer being sold) is all of Autopilot plus these:
  • Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
  • Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
  • Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
  • Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.
FSD is all of EAP plus these:
  • Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
  • Automatic driving on city streets.
  • FSD computer (HW 3.0)
My problem is that EAP was taken away in favor of a whole lot less tangible product and an awful lot of promises. It's already a tough pill to swallow that one would have to pay 6000 for EAP+FSD (now just the FSD package) given that the only real advantage it provides is NoA.

While I'm opposed to subscriptions, Tesla should break apart the software and sell it adhoc. I'd pay a chunk for NoA for example, but I'm not going to pay for all the extra promises.
 
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LKAS with other manufacturers are far more usable. When you use your turn signals, it will allow the driver to switch lanes without disabling the steering assist altogether. It resumes LKAS once in the new lane. They also do not ding like an annoying seat belt sign on an airline when activated/deactivated. Having to listen to that ding every time I want to change a lane and then double push the stalk to reengage (and hear more dings!) makes it pretty close to useless for me.
I agree with your position. This is something the NoA package offers, besides just potentially changing lanes on its own.

However if it's any consolation, I'm not an aggressive driver, so I find autopilot just fine for single lane travel.
 
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The problem I have with this is that this is what was sold with EAP when that product existed in and of itself. Now to get FSD for those who had EAP they have to pay 3000 more.

So let's go down history lane a bit.

Autopilot is standard with the car right now, unless you get a SR non-plus version.
  • Traffic aware cruise control (accelerate and brake)
  • Lanekeeping assist
EAP (no longer being sold) is all of Autopilot plus these:
  • Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
  • Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
  • Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
  • Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.
FSD is all of EAP plus these:
  • Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
  • Automatic driving on city streets.
  • FSD computer (HW 3.0)
My problem is that EAP was taken away in favor of a whole lot less tangible product and an awful lot of promises. It's already a tough pill to swallow that one would have to pay 6000 for EAP+FSD (now just the FSD package) given that the only real advantage it provides is NoA.

While I'm opposed to subscriptions, Tesla should break apart the software and sell it adhoc. I'd pay a chunk for NoA for example, but I'm not going to pay for all the extra promises.

I NEVER use "history" with Tesla because it changes daily.

Concerning THIS discussion......Its easy.

I vote for both purchase and subscription. <------- pick whichever you want.

I can't imagine that this scenario would hurt anyone.


Like leasing and purchasing. <------ pick whichever you want.
 
Long time listener, first time caller...

I come from a computer networking background and believe me, Tesla is gonna need to migrate to a subscription model and to unbundle HW from SW at some point.

In the beginning when you bought a networking router, you bought the HW. SW (including new versions and bug fixes) was "free". This "bundled" model is about where Tesla is today - you buy the car and SW updates are free "forever". Now think ahead 15 years, i.e. to where the networking world is today. Everything is subscription! If you bought your M3 today and are still driving it, "free updates forever" is a great deal for you but not so great for Tesla. They keep giving you free software at every release! So at some point, Tesla is going to start charging for SW upgrades and the easiest way to do this is via subscription. You can't dump the cost of all new SW development on new HW buyers. But those who expect "free" SW updates forever will be pissed. Enter subscription model... everybody who buys after a particular date pays something per month to support SW development.

While we are in our time machine think about this - 15 years hence there will be new SW features that require HW support which your M3 doesn't have (think HW v8.0). Do you think Tesla will be handing out HW V8.0? Nope. They will say "tough luck, you can't get those features" to people driving HW V3 cars. This will significantly de-value those new features for those on old HW. Again, subscription solves this issue - you pay less per month for old, less-capable HW and at some point, your car is "end-of-life" meaning no new SW or bug fixes and your subscription costs go to $0.
 
I think the biggest issue with doing a subscription model right now is that most people wouldn't pay for it. If we had to pay monthly/yearly for the feature as it stands right now I don't think most people would pay for it. I think they'd take a significant hit compared to what they currently take in from new buyers willing to drop $6k on the promise that it'll get better down the road.
 
I think the biggest issue with doing a subscription model right now is that most people wouldn't pay for it. If we had to pay monthly/yearly for the feature as it stands right now I don't think most people would pay for it. I think they'd take a significant hit compared to what they currently take in from new buyers willing to drop $6k on the promise that it'll get better down the road.
Well they would willing to pay LESS for it now, but if you only have AP, then an FSD subscription would get you a number of features even right now. They could even charge a lower subscription fee that was limited to the FSD features that are supported by HW2 or 2.5 so they don't have to worry about upgrades in the short term.

Honestly, the biggest problem with trying to do a subscription now would be the PO'd people who paid up front thinking that was the only way to get it.
 
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Honestly, the biggest problem with trying to do a subscription now would be the PO'd people who paid up front thinking that was the only way to get it.

I think they're going to have a problem with these people pretty soon anyway. People who paid for this early on are getting antsy already. I'd be shocked if there isn't a class action suit filed in the next couple months. Tesla just isn't making the progress that they promised and people paid a LOT of money for those promises. So unless Tesla drops a major, major, update in the next couple months I think that's inevitable. And based on the videos we've seen of enhanced summon I don't think they're going to be able to pull it off.
 
I believe they are indeed dropping $6k on FSD across the board.

Tried crunching some numbers from Teslike's order tracker. Seems like the FSD adoption rate on the SR+ is higher than most would expect, but generally less expensive trims are also less likely to option FSD. That being said, note the small data issues with SR and SR+ reporting EAP:

software_chart.png
 
time will tell, 6-8K is definatly a big price to swallow, but elon announcing that FSD will go up every few months is not good for the consumer, yet it would be awesome to say purchase a feature ADD ON *summon for example" thats part of FSD.
 
Tried crunching some numbers from Teslike's order tracker. Seems like the FSD adoption rate on the SR+ is higher than most would expect, but generally less expensive trims are also less likely to option FSD. That being said, note the small data issues with SR and SR+ reporting EAP:

View attachment 443933
A lot of the SR and SR+ sales came after EAP was no longer available. If you look at FSD and EAP together, the adoption rate pretty much goes up with the purchase price of the car.
 
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