Would you pay $90-100K for a Plaid Model 3?

[kilpatds]

But, don’t you think Tesla is already trying hard to reduce the overall weight as much as they can?

I very much believe that Tesla is trying VERY hard to reduce overall weight as much as is prudent. The thought here is maybe "beyond what is prudent".

For example: a carbon fiber roof/body panels. The aftermarket has some example products at VERY unreasonable prices: 1st part parts could maybe be a bit cheaper due to economies of scale, and maybe are a differentiating feature of a $100k small sports sedan. See ... various high-range corvette models have more carbon fiber body panels. See the carbon-fiber roof option on the BMW F80 M3 in place of the sunroof.

The real issue I see with this is that Tesla is so darn production constrained, STILL, that any options complicate matters... Their current process of "just hammer out random cars, and then assign to orders" and "move rare options(homelink) to dealer-installed" shows the extent to which they don't think they can afford to have options or speculatively build cars that may not be immediately delivered.

 

[Apprunner]

Model 3 isn't that heavy. 4200 lbs given its a full BEV is very light. An AWD Audi S4 weighs around 4,000 lbs so the Model 3 is right in that range. Also, its a very low center of gravity so the handling feel is very good relative to its weight. I would argue, it probably needs 100lbs more of insulation for road noise.

 

[Phlier]

half of them seem to want the stealth because the 20" rims have a harsher ride and also are heavier which negatively affects performance.

The stealth also has the same suspension as the LR AWD, while the full Performance has a stiffer suspension. Put the 20" wheels and the tighter suspension together, and for me it's a back breaker.

Even the 19" wheels on the standard LR AWD suspension is pretty rough for me, but that's mostly because of my darn spine problems. 20 years ago, I woulda been all over that full Performance suspension.

 

[Apprunner]

The stealth also has the same suspension as the LR AWD, while the full Performance has a stiffer suspension. Put the 20" wheels and the tighter suspension together, and for me it's a back breaker.

Even the 19" wheels on the standard LR AWD suspension is pretty rough for me, but that's mostly because of my darn spine problems. 20 years ago, I woulda been all over that full Performance suspension.

The aftermarket suspensions are pretty good these days, even for comfort. I find my 20 inch Performance to be perfect for where i live in southern cal but if they ever break, I will probably go forged aftermarket 19s. I actually see a lot of Performance models with aftermarket 19s already on the streets.

 

[Phlier]

The aftermarket suspensions are pretty good these days, even for comfort.

I really should look into that. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[jbcarioca]

Model 3 isn't that heavy. 4200 lbs given its a full BEV is very light. An AWD Audi S4 weighs around 4,000 lbs so the Model 3 is right in that range. Also, its a very low center of gravity so the handling feel is very good relative to its weight. I would argue, it probably needs 100lbs more of insulation for road noise.

Active noise cancellation is far more likely than heavy sound deadening.
Also, not now but 'soon' there will be front and rear castings with structural battery. That will save much weight, reduce costs and improve rigidity and performance.

A fully equipped BMW 3 AMG will cost US$100,000. All the others will be similar. Remember that nobody would buy one of these without several expensive options.

A Plaid Model 3 will have FSD, wheels and paint to cost extra but not much else. Choose those and the price should end out about US$100,000 too.

 

[Apprunner]

I really should look into that. Thanks for the suggestion!

MPP Model 3 Comfort Adjustable Coilovers AWD/Performance | Mountain Pass Performance

I hear these are pretty good. There are Youtube videos that review them.

 

[Peteski]

Of course, these are good points. But, don’t you think Tesla is already trying hard to reduce the overall weight as much as they can?

This is extremely difficult to do in a full EV vehicle, especially with the current battery technology. A battery pack/array is heavy... and that’s not going to change significantly for a long time. The battery weight will continue to drop in the coming years, but only incrementally. So, I just don’t think the weight numbers you are suggesting are even realistic, especially in a mid-size EV like the Model 3. If you’re talking about a much smaller EV like a Bolt or Leaf, then yes your weight numbers are realistic.

Changes to the vehicle chassis/frame and interior components can also save a little weight. However, those types of weight-saving changes (using the methods/materials that are available today) tend to make a vehicle more expensive, which is opposite of what most consumers (like yourself) want. Also, while not always true, I think using more premium materials on the interior to boost the overall finish (to satisfy those who think a more “premium” interior is needed) will in general add weight to a vehicle.

Finally, I certainly do not think Tesla has been or will add more power, just for the sake of it. Increased power is certainly a major benefit of the new advancements/technologies that are coming along. However, let’s not forget the other side (perhaps primary) benefits: increased range, reduced weight, etc...

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that Tesla is not working hard to reduce the overall weight or that it is simply not a priority. It may look easy for folks like you and me, who have no clue what is involved in engineering and building a vehicle from the ground-up. However, it is obviously not easy. Tesla certainly deserves some criticism. But, let’s also give credit where credit is due. Tesla has done an absolutely amazing job with their EV’s (there is a reason why they are far & away the market leaders). And, they continue to make significant developments/improvements to their EV line. One might even say the performance numbers and increased range with their upcoming Plaid+ Model S are truly “revolutionary” for these times.

I’m talking about weight in the context of a hypothetical Plaid Model 3 with even more power and range than the current 3P. That would always be a heavy car relative to the same model using the same improved battery tech, but retaining the current level of power and range. Obviously in both cases Tesla would strive to minimise weight around those chosen power/range parameters.

As it happens I do have a professional chassis engineering background, but mainly in F1 motorsport rather than production cars. Although I have worked on converting production platforms into full blown works race cars too.

Given that the current base RWD M3 is already around 1600 kg, I don’t think my target of 1500 kg for a more performance oriented future RWD variant is unrealistic providing power and range are capped close to current 3P levels.

 

[GreenHokie]

MPP Model 3 Comfort Adjustable Coilovers AWD/Performance | Mountain Pass Performance

I hear these are pretty good. There are Youtube videos that review them.

Yep, those are the ones I have on mine. Currently have them on the softest setting, and man do they make a difference compared to the stock suspension! Some might consider the ride too soft. But, you can always easily adjust and firm up the ride to your preference, if you really want to feel everything on the road. These coilovers are certainly not inexpensive, but worth every penny IMO.

 

[Peteski]

Model 3 isn't that heavy. 4200 lbs given its a full BEV is very light. An AWD Audi S4 weighs around 4,000 lbs so the Model 3 is right in that range. Also, its a very low center of gravity so the handling feel is very good relative to its weight. I would argue, it probably needs 100lbs more of insulation for road noise.

It is still relatively heavy compared to the very best handling ICE cars on the market. I’m just saying, given a choice, I would prefer less weight than more power in this car. Power is already its strongest point, while weight is a relative weakness (compared to ICE competitors).

 

[Apprunner]

I’m talking about weight in the context of a hypothetical Plaid Model 3 with even more power and range than the current 3P. That would always be a heavy car relative to the same model using the same improved battery tech, but retaining the current level of power and range. Obviously in both cases Tesla would strive to minimise weight around those chosen power/range parameters.

As it happens I do have a professional chassis engineering background, but mainly in F1 motorsport rather than production cars. Although I have worked on converting production platforms into full blown works race cars too.

Given that the current base RWD M3 is already around 1600 kg, I don’t think my target of 1500 kg for a more performance oriented future RWD variant is unrealistic providing power and range are capped close to current 3P levels.

Well the tri motor design probably weighs a bit more but the real weight savings may come from the new 4680 structural battery pack vs. the current modular design. I wonder how much weight can be shaved there. My guess is that Tesla will go for range vs. lightness if they ever provide a Plaid model. So the weight may remain the same but it will get near 500 miles of range in its Plaid model so that we can track it for more than 30 minutes

 

[GreenHokie]

I’m talking about weight in the context of a hypothetical Plaid Model 3 with even more power and range than the current 3P. That would always be a heavy car relative to the same model using the same improved battery tech, but retaining the current level of power and range. Obviously in both cases Tesla would strive to minimise weight around those chosen power/range parameters.

As it happens I do have a professional chassis engineering background, but mainly in F1 motorsport rather than production cars. Although I have worked on converting production platforms into full blown works race cars too.

Given that the current base RWD M3 is already around 1600 kg, I don’t think my target of 1500 kg for a more performance oriented future RWD variant is unrealistic providing power and range are capped close to current 3P levels.

My apologies. I thought you were talking about your target 1500 kg curb weight in the context of a hypothetical Plaid Model 3... which would surely be a dual or tri-motor AWD variant. The curb weight on the AWD starts somewhere a little above 1800 kg. So, that is why I was thinking a drop from 1800 to 1500 kg is just not realistic. If you were referring to only the base RWD model (which weighs around 1600 kg), then yes dropping the weight on that one to 1500 kg seems more attainable/reasonable. Of course, Tesla would never consider offering a Plaid trim using the standard single motor RWD set-up. Plaid would most certainly be offered only with the heavier dual or tri-motor AWD drivetrain.

 

[Peteski]

Well the tri motor design probably weighs a bit more but the real weight savings may come from the new 4680 structural battery pack vs. the current modular design. I wonder how much weight can be shaved there. My guess is that Tesla will go for range vs. lightness if they ever provide a Plaid model. So the weight may remain the same but it will get near 500 miles of range in its Plaid model so that we can track it for more than 30 minutes

I have no doubt that they would go for range/power with a Plaid model and weight would remain roughly where it is today. But if they actually wanted to chase ultimate lap times, then a lighter version with a little less power/range would no doubt be quicker and more fun to drive on the limit. They could offer both variants of course, which is what the Germans often do.

I guess I just want to see an EV competitive on weight and handling with an equivalent ICE competitor. I think the Model 3P is pretty close already, but just not quite ahead of the very best yet. As a daily road car however, I can't fault it. The drivetrain is unbeatable and that more than makes up for the slight weight disadvantage.

 

[Peteski]

My apologies. I thought you were talking about your target 1500 kg curb weight in the context of a hypothetical Plaid Model 3... which would surely be a dual or tri-motor AWD variant. The curb weight on the AWD starts somewhere a little above 1800 kg. So, that is why I was thinking a drop from 1800 to 1500 kg is just not realistic. If you were referring to only the base RWD model (which weighs around 1600 kg), then yes dropping the weight on that one to 1500 kg seems more attainable/reasonable. Of course, Tesla would never consider offering a Plaid trim using the standard single motor RWD set-up. Plaid would most certainly be offered only with the heavier dual or tri-motor AWD drivetrain.

Hey no worries, easy to miss the details! I was just talking about a hypothetical track focused alternative to a Plaid mega-power beast. I was thinking RWD with around 450-500 hp at 1500 kg. Of course the Plaid would have loads more power and AWD, but would probably be 300 kg heavier.

 

[TMThree]

Again for me power simply comes down to the law of diminishing returns. Just been out in my standard LR AWD on a damp road.

Would more power make it more fun? No not really. Sure it would give even more of a kick off the line at full gas, but IME the novelty soon wears off. 450 hp in a reasonably compact road car is quite enough.

Thats a small minded comment there. Good enough for you doesn't mean good enough for everyone else.

My hayabusa is much faster than your car and I would still like to go faster.

If you went on the Prius forums, they would say your car should cost half as much and be twice as slow because what you have is overkill. Meanwhile head over to the lambo forums and they would have different set of expectations in the other direction.

At this point I'm just talking in circles here. You think one size fits all based on your current conceptions. I'm old enough to know that what I want now might not be what I want tomorrow.

So how about a 1500 kg RWD Model 3 lightweight performance?

Power draw is dependent on the battery. Depending on the cell specs, it can draw at a max rate of power, so more cells means higher energy output. That works against lighter weight if you want more power draw. At least till they have higher density battery with higher C rated output.

 

[Phlier]

Thats a small minded comment there.

He didn't really mean any harm by that. Peteski and I have been going back and forth, with me taking the Tim Allen "Moar Powah!" side, and him taking the "any Tesla is fast enough" side for a few days, and it has all been good spirited fun.

He agrees with everyone having their own opinions about this... he was just needling me/us with that one a bit, I think. I don't mean to speak for him, but that's my take on it.

It really would be nice for them to have a battery formula breakthrough to either allow that higher C rating, or even better... higher energy density, for sure.

 

[TMThree]

Don't mind me, I'm just getting grumpy waiting for my tri motor CT.

 

[valaeyron]

Using this logic, everyone would own something like a Prius. Because I Can take your current logic and say that you can go with an EV with a 0-60 of 9 seconds and it would be more efficient than yours with everything else being equal. Then we'd end up with 11 second 0-60 speeds.

yeah, there’s diminishing returns...definitely.

 

[Peteski]

Thats a small minded comment there. Good enough for you doesn't mean good enough for everyone else.

My hayabusa is much faster than your car and I would still like to go faster.

Power draw is dependent on the battery. Depending on the cell specs, it can draw at a max rate of power, so more cells means higher energy output. That works against lighter weight if you want more power draw. At least till they have higher density battery with higher C rated output.

I’ve been around fast cars long enough to know that people just crave more and more power, even when they are 10 seconds off the pace on a track day for the car they already have. Drag racing too is a hobby where more power is always welcome. But for a road/street car there is always a diminishing return on what power you can safely utilise. Obviously you just crave maximum straight line acceleration, which is fine. More power in a 3P isn’t going to make you any faster through the corners. That was my point really.

The part about power being linked to battery capacity and therefore weight is the exact reason I’m not wishing for any more power in this car. I would prefer less weight because I know that will inherently make it a better handling car. If I lived somewhere with straight roads and lights every quarter mile I might think differently, lol.

 

[Peteski]

He didn't really mean any harm by that. Peteski and I have been going back and forth, with me taking the Tim Allen "Moar Powah!" side, and him taking the "any Tesla is fast enough" side for a few days, and it has all been good spirited fun.

He agrees with everyone having their own opinions about this... he was just needling me/us with that one a bit, I think. I don't mean to speak for him, but that's my take on it.

It really would be nice for them to have a battery formula breakthrough to either allow that higher C rating, or even better... higher energy density, for sure.

Exactly. From a chassis/handling perspective I am just trying to get people to think beyond headline power figures and the compromise chasing more and more power entails with an EV.