Would you pay for privately owned superchargers?

[jgs]

I will have to disagree with you on this point. The statements clearly show that Tesla is not in favor of a pay as you go business model. Therefore, it is likely that they would invoke their patent rights to prevent someone from using Tesla technology in that manner.

Larry

It's clear they think it's a bad business model FOR THEM and their own charger network (and I happen to agree). I've seen no evidence that they would attempt to interfere with someone else's business model.

Without someone actually trying it, we'll never know. And nobody's going to try it in the foreseeable future because it makes no business sense for reasons that have already been discussed up-thread. So I guess it's moot.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Without someone actually trying it, we'll never know. And nobody's going to try it in the foreseeable future because it makes no business sense for reasons that have already been discussed up-thread. So I guess it's moot.

Well, here's something that we do agree on. :wink:

Larry

 

[Twiglett]

the other part of the supercharger network is that it really is a network. I very much doubt given that statement from last year that Tesla are even remotely interested in allowing none Tesla superchargers into the network.
If its out of the supercharger network the car will not navigate using them will it?

 

[rolosrevenge]

Here's my thought on paying for superchargers. I would pay, and I want them. Why? because even now, with such a low number of Tesla's on the road, we're seeing supercharger congestion. What happens after Model X, and Model 3, and say Apple makes a car and licenses the super charger network. Do you mean to tell me that Tesla will build a network as ubiquitous as the offramp gas stations? I seriously doubt it. But gas stations actually make little money from selling gas, but from selling everything else in their stores. So I'd like to see Love's and the like add 4 supercharger bays for $15-$30 for an hour. When the free superchargers are full and you're looking at a 40 minute wait, you'll be glad you can pay somewhere nearby. Plus I can see pay stops being located every 30 miles like they are now rather than every 100 which is much more convenient.

This is from last year going to TMC Connect. Some people had to wait 30 min or more to plug in. While we're all friendly now, it won't necessarily be the case when there are multiple models at different price points with a vastly larger swath of the population as the clientele.

 

[Twiglett]

While we're all friendly now, it won't necessarily be the case when there are multiple models at different price points with a vastly larger swath of the population as the clientele.

There is truth to that statement. Most of us who drive EV now are the early adopters who are willing to put up with the differences.
But as the so called normal drivers start to show up it will turn into less of a community or meet and greet feel to it all for sure.

 

[MichFin]

There is no way a single company could possibly build out the infrastructure by themselves. So I can see a booming business in 3+ years from now to add high speed chargers at existing gas stations, rest stops and side of the road shops and stuff. But until now they have been installing level 2 chargers and low amperage chademo chargers. What they need is the high end chargers that can really charge a car in 30 minutes any thing else is a waste of money because people don't want to stop for 3 hours. Also, don't even bother trying to accommodate leaf's and sparks because their range is so low they can't possibly imagine going on a road trip.

So that leaves Tesla and possibly Chevy bolt and anyone else building a 200+ mile EV that is fast chargeable. Also, charging by the hour is not efficient because your costs are based on KWH.

So imagine if you can build 8 bay supercharger station for $150k (what Tesla says they are paying) You charge $25 for 50 kwh charge on average of which $10 goes to power company with a net of $15 average per car profit. If you can do 10 cars a day even then you pull in $150 a day $54,750 a year. As more private charging stations are built I imagine the profit margin will be reduced but that wont happen for at least 10 years.

 

[jgs]

There is no way a single company could possibly build out the infrastructure by themselves.

Why do you say so? As long as the amount of infrastructure needed – and its cost – scales no worse than linearly in the number of cars, and as long as the per-car lifetime cost to build out and operate the network is recouped in the sale price of the vehicle, the revenues would seem to line up quite nicely. As others have pointed out, Tesla is currently getting something like $2000 per car for supercharging. If you look at the hoped-for 500,000 Model 3's, that works out to $1 billion to spend on beefing up the network. Sure, it might not work out for some reason, but I don't see "no way" being justified by those numbers.

Mind you, I'd be perfectly happy to see more options providing denser coverage.

 

[MichFin]

The scale of which is SO massive I can't imagine anyone taking on that task by themselves. 500k cars x $2k = $1B at $150k per station = 6666 charging stations in 1 year or 18 per day.

Also, at a cost of $35k per car they probably are not counting on $2 per car for the super charger because their margins are too tight.

 

[essaunders]

I could see the current 120kw level stations owned by Telsa remaining (prepaid/free). I could also see a next-generation higher power (perhaps with backwards compatibility) being paid - either on a Tesla network or private. Tesla could continue to maintain the supercharger network for 'free' use, but the new 'superdupercharger' network could have a per-charge fee. It would be worth paying the fee to either get faster charging with the newest car/truck OR with your 10 year old Model S to get (old, slow) 120KW thus avoiding the long line at the old 'supercharger' across the street

 

[MichFin]

They would need to identify and negotiate contracts for over 6000 locations then manage all those projects. That's the sort of thing huge corporations find impossible let alone a upstart car company.

 

[paulkva]

...
Musk: That was already said. Actually we've already said that. The intent of the Supercharger network is not to create a walled garden. Any other manufacturer that's interested in using them, we'd be happy to accommodate. It's just that they need to be able to accept the power level of the Superchargers, which is currently 135kW and rising, so any car needs to meet the Supercharger standard. And they'd also need to agree with the business model, which is we don't charge people on a per-charge basis. They'd need to contribute to the capital costs proportional to their fleet's usage of the network. So we think that's pretty fair.

Thanks for chasing that down! The quote seems to pertain specifically to other auto manufacturers wanting to be able to charge at Tesla Superchargers though. It's a bit of a stretch to see it as Tesla telling other people that if they want to build their own Supercharger-compatible chargers, they have to provide access to them for free.

I'm not saying Tesla wouldn't do that, although I hope they wouldn't since it's pretty silly. I'm just saying it doesn't seem to me to be supported by the quote. Lacking any example of someone who's actually tried, it's impossible to know for sure, of course.

If you parse Elon's words very carefully (can't imagine anyone here at TMC ever doing that, eh?), they don't outright prevent another company from charging their customers using a subscription model, i.e. pay $x per day/week/month/year for supercharger access. (I guess "per day" might be stretching it a bit.) I expect, though, that the amount Tesla will ask another company to pay/contribute toward the network's capital costs could be high enough to make such a subscription model difficult for that company to support.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Here's my thought on paying for superchargers. I would pay, and I want them. Why? because even now, with such a low number of Tesla's on the road, we're seeing supercharger congestion. What happens after Model X, and Model 3, and say Apple makes a car and licenses the super charger network. Do you mean to tell me that Tesla will build a network as ubiquitous as the offramp gas stations? I seriously doubt it. But gas stations actually make little money from selling gas, but from selling everything else in their stores. So I'd like to see Love's and the like add 4 supercharger bays for $15-$30 for an hour. When the free superchargers are full and you're looking at a 40 minute wait, you'll be glad you can pay somewhere nearby. Plus I can see pay stops being located every 30 miles like they are now rather than every 100 which is much more convenient.

Tesla will open up its Supercharger patents to boost electric car adoption

Here's what Elon said:

Journalist: Is that sort of aimed towards the superchargers and allowing other car manufacturers to use your charger network?

Musk: That was already said. Actually we've already said that. The intent of the Supercharger network is not to create a walled garden. Any other manufacturer that's interested in using them, we'd be happy to accommodate. It's just that they need to be able to accept the power level of the Superchargers, which is currently 135kW and rising, so any car needs to meet the Supercharger standard. And they'd also need to agree with the business model, which is we don't charge people on a per-charge basis. They'd need to contribute to the capital costs proportional to their fleet's usage of the network. So we think that's pretty fair.

No matter how hard I parse it, :wink: I have difficulty in interpreting the highlighted phrase as anything but Elon would not permit Tesla technology to be used in support of a business model, which charges people on a per-charge basis.

With regard to the Supercharger congestion issue, there is quite a bit that can be done to alleviate that problem.

Last year Tesla averaged 2 Supercharger per week, and this year they are averaging slightly higher.

When Tesla is the first to build hundred of thousands of long range EV per year, the Tesla charging specification will be the de facto charging standard. When that happens other manufacturers will see the wisdom in adopting the Tesla specification and paying the cost of admission to the Supercharger network as described in Elon's quote above. This will give massive amounts of additional funding. Virtually all of those new EVs will have Supercharging capabilities and will pay for the cost of admission, but only a very small fraction of those cars are on long road trips at any given time.

As the Tesla brand becomes even better known, hosting locations will actively seek out Tesla to install Supercharger Stations and the installation rate will increase.

Tesla will be able to backfill between existing Supercharger locations with spacing that are ever closer.

Existing Supercharger Stations can be expanded by adding stalls where feasible.

Where not feasible to add stalls, Tesla can increase the average charging rate of a Station by stacking more chargers in the Supercharger stack. This increased capacity will increase the throughput of congested Stations.


The real value in Battery Swapping installation concept is to relieve congested Superchargers.


Larry

 

[hill]

Cheapest way to have DC quick charging at home is through this company;
Electric Motor Werks, Inc. - NEW: CHAdeMO (TM) - compatible charge controller for EMotorWerks DC Chargers
You buy one of these and then use your chademo adapter.

 

[hill]

Adding up all the components necessary to have (just) a 35kW DC charger (CHAdeMO protocol) at home, you'd need to cough up > $5,000 ... then you'd still need the super charger adapter. That's going to get you a charge rate of maybe 100 miles of range per hour and a charger that's in door use only, and non-UL approved. IMO, way less than 1/2 of 1% of owners would consider that kind of cash outlay ... minimum. Tesla has made their patents public domain ... which would necessarily include their super charger protocol. Is there any one on the boards who's technically savvy (& has the time & resources) enough to shoulder a home brew or marketable project? ... for the miniscule owners of electrical service panels that can handle a spare 100 amp breaker? yeah ... that pretty much puts the kibosh on such a project.
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[jgs]

Tesla has made their patents public domain

They haven't. They've offered to license them under non-assert terms, although details of the offered terms haven't been disclosed. "Public domain" has a specific legal meaning, very different from that.

... which would necessarily include their super charger protocol.

Actually the likelihood that the entire SC protocol is patented is virtually nil, because of how patents and protocols work. It's barely possible they could have disclosed the entire protocol as part of a patent filing, though again, very unlikely. I kinda doubt any of the protocol is patented (I've seen it asserted it's just J1772 with a different connector, I don't know myself, though I do know something about patents in other domains). Tesla may consider it a trade secret and protect it with crypto, or they may not bother with any of that. But as you point out:

Is there any one on the boards who's technically savvy (& has the time & resources) enough to shoulder a home brew or marketable project? ... for the miniscule owners of electrical service panels that can handle a spare 100 amp breaker? yeah ... that pretty much puts the kibosh on such a project.

... the question is moot anyway because the market just doesn't exist.

 

[mgemmell]

...Is there any one on the boards who's technically savvy (& has the time & resources) enough to shoulder a home brew or marketable project? ... for the miniscule owners of electrical service panels that can handle a spare 100 amp breaker? yeah ... that pretty much puts the kibosh on such a project.
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Not me, but I have asked some smart young lads to look into it. I figure if in the near future we are all combining solar panels with home storage then it won't be difficult to have 400V 300A DC... you just take your batteries and chain them together to get the right Voltage and current.

Clearly an over-simplification, but if/when we start storing 100kWh+ at home the kind of voltage and current a SC needs can be more "easily" found. Who is in that kind of a rush to charge at home? No one I guess, but when you park in the street (where the majority of cars int he World are parked) you will want to charge occasionally and as quickly as possible, without having to go out of town. That is the market. And who will deploy these non Tesla SCs? Anyone who wants to attract customers to drop by.

In other words, I don't think the market is an SC at home, but it is a huge market and it means an off-grid SC at every major retail store and coffee shop. And, being off-grid, operating costs should be low, so just like the SC network, once you are signed up you are essentially charging for free.

Sounds good... but until I've got a test system at home its all just talk. As the SC protocol is an unknown, for now we're doing Chademo and Combo.

 

[hill]

They haven't. They've offered to license them under non-assert terms, although details of the offered terms haven't been disclosed. "Public domain" has a specific legal meaning........ snip.......

really ... license you say ... you may want to enlighten the folks at corporate counsel dot com;

"... something Tesla CEO Elon Musk did last year when he announced he was placing his company’s patents in the public domain....."

http://m.corpcounsel.com/module/alm/app/cc.do#!/article/1745055343
Yes, I know the difference between non assert and public domain as I'm going on my third decade of being licensed here in California. Still - if you have a link that contradicts the good folks at the above website, I'd love to read the link. But to date I haven't found any facts that the corporatecounsel website provides, to be inaccurate.
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[jgs]

All Our Patent Are Belong To You | Tesla Motors, by Elon Musk:

"Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology." The words "public domain" are never used, although there is some handwaving about "open source". Of course, most open source software is also not public domain, but rather licensed, sometimes under quite restrictive license terms (the GPL in its different variations being the obvious example).

I'm not inclined to take the word of a trade rag, no matter how reputable, over the horse's mouth.

In any case, it's at best tangential to the subject at hand, since the likelihood Tesla's patents disclose every necessary detail of their Supercharger protocols is vanishingly small.

 

[hill]

"Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology." The words "public domain" are never used, although there is some handwaving about "open source".
. . . . . snip . . . .
In any case, it's at best tangential to the subject at hand ... snip....

agreed it's tangential - & that's good ... if we move past the picky-uni dialogue of open-source/licensing distinctions - I won't have to remind who brought it up in the 1st place -

Let's say a Tesla outdoor SC costs (for equipment, permits, insurance, install-construction, property lease/purchase, materials, etc.) > $40k - which may be high or low ... remembering, we're not going to get picky uni. Now you have to give value to monthly / yearly maintenance costs, especially after any warranty expires .... and, equally important here in So Cal (&other areas too), one has to factor in what utility companies refer to as "demand fees".
In short, commercial rates for a large draw on electricity can easily run in 4 to 5 figures if during ANY billing cycle, your instantaneous usage exceeds a given amount. That's no big deal, if you're a hospital or a Nordstroms or a theme park, because your already paying the demand fee. But if you run a Starbucks? ... or some other mom n pop business? You won't be able to afford to loose money for the 3 to 5 dozen possible users per week.
Now what some private CHAdeMO commercial owners do, is program down the unit's draw, to say ...
50kW's max. Limiting a DC quick charger output can save a lot on demand fees .... especially for a business that isn't in the quick charge business anyway. But it still may give rise to bringing in the EV owner's patronage.
Either way you slice it, you are looking at a large cost .... startup, maintenance, & power usage. That brings me full circle back to the aftermarket supercharger. Innovative people look at a product, and try to figure a cheaper way to build the mousetrap - so that they can make money on the same item. If Elon Musk isn't going to chase after manufacturers for building cheaper superchargers, then it seems like all sides win ... more businesses may consider adding a supercharger to draw in customers, Tesla's format gets expanded, and the cheap manufacturers profit as well.
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