Would I have bought without FSD? Well, I did, didn't I? So yes, absolutely. It is a beautiful and quick car with minimal environmental consequences, a great range and new look on what a modern car entails. I even forgive it for the included but far from brilliant TACC and lane keeping and drive it myself. It is a great experience.
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Would you still have bought your model 3 if it never had autopilot?
- Thread starter Mr. Burrito
- Start date
Fernand
Active Member
The people who say the automation would rob them of the pleasure of driving, I don't get. You don't always drive the same way. Sitting in bumper to bumper traffic and working accelerator and brake, putting all that mountain road euphoria and precision racetrack skill to work just to avoid rear-ending Brad and Janet's Buick in front, I can stand being robbed of. Same when doing the 65MPH freeway conveyor belt commute. For those who prefer skill-driving the conveyor, computa say: it's fine to do it in manual. Having more driving modes available is just another dimension in driving this phenomenal car.
I was kinda hoping for the same thing, so I contacted Tesla a couple of weeks ago and they responded as follows:
Thank you for your interest in experiencing the Autopilot and Full Self-Driving trial. We have suspended all Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Trials currently. We are working to roll out a new trial to all cars that have no Autopilot and Full Self-Driving software installed. We will announce further details as a new trial becomes available. Please subscribe to our newsletter for any other information and updates: https://www.tesla.com/updates.
I think a graduated price structure could also work for Tesla. I personally don't drive 5 days a week any longer.
So my yearly mileage is considerably less.
Perhaps Tesla should consider adding a choice to what customers are willing to pay.
Such as: Drive more pay more, Drive less pay less!
So my yearly mileage is considerably less.
Perhaps Tesla should consider adding a choice to what customers are willing to pay.
Such as: Drive more pay more, Drive less pay less!
Kleenerth3
Member
I like the pay as you play idea. Seems like a lot of people like using it, just not all the time. I'm not stuck in traffic much any more and wouldn't use it much, if at all. Like I posted earlier, it's nice to know that it's there if there's a sudden need or emergency. I have a feeling that there will be an opportunity to buy it via one of Elons end of the QSales for less than ordinary.I think a graduated price structure could also work for Tesla. I personally don't drive 5 days a week any longer.
So my yearly mileage is considerably less.
Perhaps Tesla should consider adding a choice to what customers are willing to pay.
Such as: Drive more pay more, Drive less pay less!
Now that I know how awesome driving this car is, I would in a heartbeat. The thing is though, if autopilot didn't exist I would've never bothered looking at a Tesla and trying one. It was definitely what first got my attention and oh I so love it on my daily commute. Better than I ever thought possible.
CharleyBC
Active Member
Yes. When we reserved in April 2016, I don't think I knew anything about AP. (I'm not saying there was no such info, just that I hadn't dug deeply yet.) But we knew we wanted an EV with good tech and great range.
Fernand
Active Member
I think one of Musk's smart approaches is simplifying. Model 3s are a bit like Ford's black Model Ts. Especially good for a young company with limited staff. Many proposed tiered pricing ideas are great, but they demand more resources - handling updates, servicing, inventory on a more diverse fleet. It's just reality.
Now, I don't think ANYONE starts out really liking the automation. I didn't.
Then some take the time to learn when/how to use it, then love it, while others by them have just dismissed it. To use a poor analogy, say 4 wheel drive, some might try engaging 4WD on any sort of road and conclude it's "not useful". For others, who take the time to get to know it, it's a valuable addition that they might use from 5 to 95% of their specific driving conditions. I use AP/NOA ~ 90% of the time on freeways, maybe 25% on streets/roads.
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Now, I don't think ANYONE starts out really liking the automation. I didn't.
Then some take the time to learn when/how to use it, then love it, while others by them have just dismissed it. To use a poor analogy, say 4 wheel drive, some might try engaging 4WD on any sort of road and conclude it's "not useful". For others, who take the time to get to know it, it's a valuable addition that they might use from 5 to 95% of their specific driving conditions. I use AP/NOA ~ 90% of the time on freeways, maybe 25% on streets/roads.
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The automation part isn't the issue, it's all the ghost breaking, navigating into the opposite lane, and pestering you to change lanes dozens of miles before your exit. Overhead passes makes the car emergency brake, I can't count how many times I've almost caused accidents on the highway because of this behavior.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Yeah, ghosts are expensive to repair...
If only users didn't keep using the system in places that the manual explicitly tell you not to, and then complaining it doesn't work there.
Just my experience but in ~12000 highway miles on EAP my car- 0 braking events for overpasses in that time. It'll sometimes brake when there's a car ahead in an adjacent lane it's unsure is coming over or not because the road curved or something, but that's about it for phantom braking- which isn't really phantom since there's an actual and obvious reason even if the car isn't always correct to do it.
Lane changes specifically to follow route/take an exit never happen more than maybe 1-2 miles from the exit- honestly I've sometimes thought it waits TOO long when traffic is heavy....only lane changing it does besides that is to pass slower cars or get out of the fast lane when it's not needed.
If this is the case for you then you have a completely different experience than me. My TM3 suddenly decides to switch to the oncoming lane even though there are clear lines splitting the road.
I have yet to drive on autopilot without experiencing ghost breaking, it's very annoying and painful at times, especially with overhead passes and emergency breaking.
I have several video clips of the navigate on autopilot pestering me to change lines when it's over 60km until my exit. I press cancel, then it reappears after a few seconds, press cancel, reappears, and so on until I turn off navigate on autopilot.
Your reply makes me want to try another TM3 to see if it's just my car which has issues with everything. That wouldn't surprise me, it's been in the shop 5 times in 7 months for:
* chrome detail pointing out
* loose panels by the right mirror and rear passenger window
* steering wheel not saved to profile
* bluetooth issues
* auto wipers not working at all
* no connection
* frunk suddenly opening
* excessive road noise
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
My experience is that the system is explicitly not intended to be used on roads with oncoming, undivided, traffic
The fact your car is behaving badly in a place it's explicitly not meant to behave correctly is the fault of the user, not the car.
The current system and software is only intended for use on limited access highways with all traffic going in the same direction.
Model 3 Owners Manual said:
Any lane available to the car is assumed to be going the same direction as the car.
Are you sure it's not trying to pass or exit the passing lane- instead of as you're claiming changing lanes for an exit that's 60km away?
The message on the screen is different for these things- so if you have video of it that'd clarify what's actually happening.
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If I can't use AP on roads that are only separated by yellow lines then Tesla shouldn't be allowed to sell cars with AP in Scandinavia.
The message I get is to use turn signal to confirm route. If I activate the turn signal it will change lanes. If I don't do anything it will break and align with all possible openings in the lane it wants me to change into.
It's different from the "change out of/into the passing lane" message, and only happens while on AP on multiple lane highways.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
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Norway does kinda have the worst road/highway system (in western europe at least)- but it's not an island and there's plenty of divided highways all over other Scandinavian countries (and the rest of the EU) where current Tesla AP systems are intended to work.
The fact you appear to have bought the system without understanding what it actually does and where it's intended to work is on you though- not Tesla.
Wait I thought you didn't have multi-lane divided highways?
Seriously though that's a real issue- never heard of a car doing that.
Could be something wrong with the maps for Norway I guess... as I say I never get the change lanes to follow route thing more thana mile or two before whatever exit/fork/etc is relevant....
Have you driven in other countries and experience the same thing?
CharleyBC
Active Member
early owner here without AP. Now that the new cars comes with standard AP, I will buy a new Tesla with it rather than pay to upgrade my current one. IMO, the early adopters should have gotten basic AP for free.
Just so were clear, that's not whining, just stating my opinion, still love driving this car, AP or not. i'd just rather get the newest camera tech than upgrade the old stuff.
Just so were clear, that's not whining, just stating my opinion, still love driving this car, AP or not. i'd just rather get the newest camera tech than upgrade the old stuff.
100% would buy without Autopilot. I miss using a real functional cruise control.
(Used it all the time to protect me from my lead foot in previous vehicles... I also miss going 350+ miles at 80+ mph without stopping on road trips, but I knew that ability wasn't a feature of the SR+... I also miss real buttons & switches for doing things without needing to look, but that's another thread)
TACC straight up sucks:
Since 'Autopilot' ,aka- Autosteer, appears to be TACC + limited lane following ability, it makes sense that AP / Autosteer sucks too. Both are decent for reducing stress in sunny/clear stop & go traffic, but not much else. IMHO, AP drives like a drunk 8 year old. Yes, I know it is allegedly a beta product. I work with custom hardware/software/AI/ML and understand the definition, so AP seems more an alpha product to me. Anyway... back on topic.
No, I don't expect AP to work outside a highway/freeway/interstate, but I do expect it to be able to follow a lane through a gentle curve at freeway speed. Which it can barely do below 65 mph without swerving & over-correcting, and cannot do above 65 mph without getting too close to nearby cars / leaving the lane a little. When using AP above 65 mph through sweeping curves, it under turns in the beginning and/or middle of the sweeper, then it over-corrects late in the turn and puts itself far too close to the inside lanes / cars coming out of the turn. I've watched other Model 3s using AP (driver visibly surfing FB and texting in front of their face) ahead of me on the same curve, and their car will 'follow' that curve the same exact way, so I know its not a calibration issue with just my unit.
TL;DR- Seriously, if Tesla can't even make cruise control work correctly, how are they ever going to do anything above Lvl. 2 automation... I drive better with my knee, while eating a taco, sending a voice text, and changing the music than this car can with clean glass/lenses and the latest firmware on an sunny/dry empty freeway. From looking at my car's abilities on TACC & AP, its crystal clear that something approximating FSD is at least several major hardware refreshes away. I do not believe for one second that the current system is even remotely capable of freeway only Lvl. 3 or 4 autonomy in a real and meaningful way.
(Used it all the time to protect me from my lead foot in previous vehicles... I also miss going 350+ miles at 80+ mph without stopping on road trips, but I knew that ability wasn't a feature of the SR+... I also miss real buttons & switches for doing things without needing to look, but that's another thread)
TACC straight up sucks:
- Panic braking at shadows on an empty street / open freeway
- Panic braking at vehicles turning ahead of my vehicle (vehicles that wouldn't be an impediment to cars 2+ car-lengths closer)
- Panic braking at parked cars that aren't even in my lane of travel
- Slowing down when changing lanes, despite no other vehicles in path within specified follow distance
- All this is still happening on 32.12.2
Since 'Autopilot' ,aka- Autosteer, appears to be TACC + limited lane following ability, it makes sense that AP / Autosteer sucks too. Both are decent for reducing stress in sunny/clear stop & go traffic, but not much else. IMHO, AP drives like a drunk 8 year old. Yes, I know it is allegedly a beta product. I work with custom hardware/software/AI/ML and understand the definition, so AP seems more an alpha product to me. Anyway... back on topic.
No, I don't expect AP to work outside a highway/freeway/interstate, but I do expect it to be able to follow a lane through a gentle curve at freeway speed. Which it can barely do below 65 mph without swerving & over-correcting, and cannot do above 65 mph without getting too close to nearby cars / leaving the lane a little. When using AP above 65 mph through sweeping curves, it under turns in the beginning and/or middle of the sweeper, then it over-corrects late in the turn and puts itself far too close to the inside lanes / cars coming out of the turn. I've watched other Model 3s using AP (driver visibly surfing FB and texting in front of their face) ahead of me on the same curve, and their car will 'follow' that curve the same exact way, so I know its not a calibration issue with just my unit.
TL;DR- Seriously, if Tesla can't even make cruise control work correctly, how are they ever going to do anything above Lvl. 2 automation... I drive better with my knee, while eating a taco, sending a voice text, and changing the music than this car can with clean glass/lenses and the latest firmware on an sunny/dry empty freeway. From looking at my car's abilities on TACC & AP, its crystal clear that something approximating FSD is at least several major hardware refreshes away. I do not believe for one second that the current system is even remotely capable of freeway only Lvl. 3 or 4 autonomy in a real and meaningful way.
