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Would you trust FSD?

ElectricIAC

Devil’s Advocate
Dec 31, 2019
2,961
1,984
DFW
Maybe. But there seem to be quite a few people who bought FSD for $7K and are happy with what they have right now.

If you’re spending that kind of money, you owe it to yourself to really understand what you’re getting and not just rely on the entity selling it. But even still, what Tesla is promising (even if it’s late..or really late) isn’t without value. FSD can only get better, even if it never gets to level 5.
When a vehicles base price is $35,000 and not $80,000, $7,000 option appears outsized even if the option is exactly the same throughout the lineup.
 
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Dan203

Active Member
Jul 10, 2019
1,421
1,025
Northern Nevada
If you’re spending that kind of money, you owe it to yourself to really understand what you’re getting and not just rely on the entity selling it. But even still, what Tesla is promising (even if it’s late..or really late) isn’t without value. FSD can only get better, even if it never gets to level 5.

Perhaps but I feel like if they don't release something this year that at least resembles self driving a class action lawsuit will be on the horizon. My fear is they feel that pressure too and will not only release untested/unfinished features to stave it off, but also become so focused on FSD that they'll slack off on things drivers actually need like more service centers and manufacturing more parts so that people don't have to wait months after being in a minor accident.
 

BeeGood

Member
Jan 27, 2020
199
157
Georgia
When a vehicles base price is $35,000 and not $80,000, $7,000 option appears outsized even if the option is exactly the same throughout the lineup.

I hear you. I bought the regular SR (added autopilot after I took delivery). I was not and am not interested in paying $7K for FSD today.

But the value add is what it is. It’s going to enhance my SR in the same way it would enhance a completely spec’d up $65K Model 3.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
6,029
7,286
Snohomish, WA
FSD is not something that will just be released at once. It's a continuous stream of improvements that at some point in the future will be good enough for L4 self driving.

Who knows how long it will take as Tesla never gave a timeline for it. At least not anything concrete.

Whether one expected it or not the act of buying FSD was simply signing up for an adventure.

An adventure that we don't know where it will take us.
 

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,196
Vernon, BC, Canada
Gah. See, I agree this thread has a very unknown precondition so answering it pointless, but...

Let's say they continue to use cameras, because apparently the goal is to solve it with vision because that's what humans use. The huge problem they need to overcome is keeping that tiny field of vision clean and unobstructed at all times. It's easy to do this for human eyes, since they are self-cleaning and not exposed to the elements. Further, the surface we effectively look out of with our eyes is far greater than the cameras.

What I mean is this: consider the front camera array. It is "protected" compared to the fender cams and rear camera since it's behind the windshield. But it can still be completely obstructed by a precisely aimed bird dropping. A human has the whole rest of the windshield to look out of.
 
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BeeGood

Member
Jan 27, 2020
199
157
Georgia
Perhaps but I feel like if they don't release something this year that at least resembles self driving a class action lawsuit will be on the horizon. My fear is they feel that pressure too and will not only release untested/unfinished features to stave it off, but also become so focused on FSD that they'll slack off on things drivers actually need like more service centers and manufacturing more parts so that people don't have to wait months after being in a minor accident.

Thats a fair concern. I would love for them to work on infrastructure and customer support a lot more and the push to get FSD going probably detracts from that.

I think if they get stop sign/traffic light recognition to work on surface streets (even if it’s limited), that would likely be enough progress for most people to be OK with. I have to think that everyone who put up $6K or $7K knows they’re an early adopter and they’re just going to have to be patient.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
14,056
24,559
NC
If he was just saying it, and not pre-selling it, I'd feel a bit different. But people are paying an extra $7k right now for a feature that doesn't really exist with the exception of a few beta bits that don't work all that well.

Turn-signal car-made lane change work awesome.

Autopark works fine too, though it's quite slow and nobody ever reads the manual to figure out how to get it to initiate.

Nav on AP works anywhere from very well to meh depending where you drive and how good the maps are. Around here it's quite good for example- I can routinely drive between home and a friends house some 40 miles including switching between 2 different interstates with 0 disengagements from on ramp to off ramp.... some folks in other places don't get as good a result- especially in spots where they don't mark things like new/merge lanes correctly or the maps are way off.

Summon generally works fine (outside of weird lip issues)

Smart summon...is more of a party trick still... I do find it useful, occasionally, to have my car pick me in a covered roundabout at the front door of my work if it's raining- but only if I parked close enough. It's still fairly useless in busy commercial lots.


That's more than a few beta bits that don't work well.

The only two things left that don't exist yet for the paid-$7000 folks are:
  • Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs
  • Automatic driving on city streets

And technically those with HW3 got HALF of item 1 already- it "recognizes" lights and signs, just doesn't respond to em.


Now, the already-had-EAP folks who paid $2000-4000 pre-March-2019, THOSE folks have gotten literally nothing for the $ yet (except maybe the FSD computer swap)- and they've been promised a lot more than the 7k folks too.
 
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Dan203

Active Member
Jul 10, 2019
1,421
1,025
Northern Nevada
I've seen multiple YouTube videos of autopark running up on the curb. So not sure it works as well as you think.

Also seen many reports of Nav on Autopilot missing interchanges and off ramps.

And as you said smart summon is nothing more than a party trick.

Do you really think that auto lane changes, that you have to initiate manually via blinker, and the ability to pull your car forward or backward a few feet from the outside justify the $7 price tag and the badge "full self driving"?
 
would you use FSD when it releases?
The day it's released, prob not. Eventually, yes.

just like everything else... it evolves over time. Airplane autopilots did not just go "full self flying" on day one. It evolved over time from being able "just keep it straight and level" to being able to track altitudes, to waypoints, and then landing, etc. Now, the autopilot can do the whole flight. Millions of people trust that every. single. day.
 

CFdriver

Member
Feb 17, 2020
6
2
SoCal
I've seen multiple YouTube videos of autopark running up on the curb. So not sure it works as well as you think.

Also seen many reports of Nav on Autopilot missing interchanges and off ramps.

And as you said smart summon is nothing more than a party trick.

Do you really think that auto lane changes, that you have to initiate manually via blinker, and the ability to pull your car forward or backward a few feet from the outside justify the $7 price tag and the badge "full self driving"?

If only it were ... $7:)
 

CFdriver

Member
Feb 17, 2020
6
2
SoCal
The day it's released, prob not. Eventually, yes.

just like everything else... it evolves over time. Airplane autopilots did not just go "full self flying" on day one. It evolved over time from being able "just keep it straight and level" to being able to track altitudes, to waypoints, and then landing, etc. Now, the autopilot can do the whole flight. Millions of people trust that every. single. day.


Pilots, on the other hand, would tell you to trust but verify (monitor) that autopilot.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
14,056
24,559
NC
I've seen multiple YouTube videos of autopark running up on the curb. So not sure it works as well as you think.

I've seen a youtube of Elon Musks face on Chris Pike in a Star Trek episode.

Youtube has lots of crazy stuff.

Autopark has always worked fine for me in actual real life though.


Also seen many reports of Nav on Autopilot missing interchanges and off ramps.

Man, if only I'd addressed that exact thing in the post you're reply to, and mentioned that it works great in areas with good maps and proper markings, and not so great in places lacking those!

I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with generally good maps and where they actually mark lanes and exits and on ramps correctly, so it works great

Not everyone's so lucky though- so obviously the value of this feature can range from quite high to quite low depending on the persons location.

Like, ya know, I specifically pointed out in the first place.


And as you said smart summon is nothing more than a party trick.

No, I didn't... I said it's "more of a party trick still... I do find it useful, occasionally" and then described the situation it's been specifically useful for.

It's like you only skimmed the posts you're replying to without really reading them or something....


, and the ability to pull your car forward or backward a few feet from the outside

Quite a lot of folks use that all the time to get in/out of tight parking spots, narrow garages, etc...lots of threads on it.

Oh- also forgot- only if you have summon do you gain the ability to trigger homelink from the Tesla app- which can also be useful in some circumstances.



Do you really think that auto lane changes, that you have to initiate manually via blinker

You don't actually.... though it's a little faster if you do.

I'm starting to think you're being critical of features you don't have and have no actual personal experience with.

Which would be really weird of you.

Is that what you're doing?
 

daniel

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2009
5,249
4,596
Kihei, HI
I know I am one of those people that likes to be in control wether it is swerving to avoid a pothole or a squirrel. I like to know it’s me at fault if something happens.

would you use FSD when it releases?

I was going to lunch today and noticed the lights on my screen were not matching up with the color of the actual street lights. I’ve seen this before as well and just wouldn’t trust it. That’s asking to blow through a red light.

I think it will always need the human element personally. Until it can save my 20’s and avoid potholes in the DMV area I won’t be using it.

When true full-self-driving (that would be Level 4 or 5) comes out I will buy it as soon as I can get my hands on one, no matter the cost (within reason). Let's say I'd pay $50K for the feature, on top of the base price of the car and whatever options I wanted. But I will not be the first one to turn it on. I'll wait until others have used theirs for a little bit. So, I will not trust it on Day 1. But if a few thousand other people get theirs before I get mine, and they've been on the roads for a week with no issues, I will begin to trust it.

I bought EAP when I ordered my Model 3. It took me a couple of weeks to get up the courage to try it. The first time, I used it for about five minutes on a stretch of freeway with very little traffic. The next day I used it for ten minutes. Now I use it wherever suitable and I trust it to work as advertised, which is to say, I remain alert and disengage it when it seems to have difficulty, and in places I know it to be not ready, or whenever a situation presents. For highway driving, lane-keeping and speed control, it's a better driver than I am. It its ideal operating situation I trust it more than I trust myself.

Once a fully autonomous car is available and say, 5000 of them have been on the roads for a month without an accident attributable to the car, I will trust it completely. At my age, I do not know if a Level 4 car will be available to the public within my lifetime. I don't think the cars Tesla is building today have sufficient hardware for it, which is one reason I didn't pay for the "FSD" package when I bought my car. But I loooooooove EAP on my car.

Remember that "feature complete" is by definition not to be regarded as trustworthy. I.e., you are not supposed to trust the car: You're supposed to be alert at all times and monitor the road and the car and disengage autopilot when your own discretion tells you the car cannot handle the situation. Level 3 is the first level at which the car asks for your trust.
 
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animorph

Active Member
Apr 1, 2016
2,164
1,586
Scottsdale, AZ
Given the number of people misusing AP and wishing they didn't have to hold the steering wheel, I think lots of people will trust FSD soon after it is "released".

I expect all of us will have plenty of experience babysitting FSD before it is allowed to actually drive the car without supervision. I may very well be ready to trust FSD by then.
 
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daniel

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2009
5,249
4,596
Kihei, HI
You’d pay 85K for a base model SR that could drive itself? I just can’t see it. Maybe if it was one singular lifetime charge of $50,000 and it applied to every Tesla I own as an individual (Charge more for commercial applications of course)

Yes, I would. Not for "feature complete FSD," but for a car that is truly autonomous; a car that I can sleep in the back seat while it takes me where I want to go, anywhere I'd be able to drive today.

But I'd probably pay a few thousand more than that for the upgraded interior. I paid $55K for my Model 3. LR RWD EAP PUP and premium paint. So I'd pay $100K for a car identical to mine but with Level 4 autonomy. Except that here on Maui I would not need LR so I'd save a bit and get SR. My previous car was $117K (2.5 non-sport Tesla Roadster)

I don't think they'll charge $50K for the Real Autonomy™ option, but I'd pay it if that was what it cost. (But I won't pay for it until it actually exists. We've seen what happened to the people who did that. They're still waiting four or five years later.)
 

focher

Active Member
Oct 15, 2013
1,297
2,461
Bay Area
Elon seems to be super bullish and overly optimistic on everything... He usually delivers, just not when he say he will.
Yeah, like delivering the Model Y two quarters early. They did the same with Model 3. 2016 called and they want their Elon Meme back.

On topic, today’s system is Level 2 with a dash of Level 3. The original question misses the point. If Level 5 is delivered, then yes it can be trusted. The real question is when will Level 5 be delivered. We don’t know.

If someone asks me if I’ll eat a ham sandwich, the answer is yes but only when that sandwich is delivered.

2370A6D9-1827-4302-B3D4-CE4244B39520.png
 
Two
Yeah, like delivering the Model Y two quarters early. They did the same with Model 3. 2016 called and they want their Elon Meme back.

On topic, today’s system is Level 2 with a dash of Level 3. The original question misses the point. If Level 5 is delivered, then yes it can be trusted. The real question is when will Level 5 be delivered. We don’t know.

If someone asks me if I’ll eat a ham sandwich, the answer is yes but only when that sandwich is delivered.

View attachment 515877
In my opinion, 2 exceptions doesn't invalidate a 2 decade long trend... But I am regularly accused of being a pessimist. Let's hope you're right and I can take a nap on my way to work by the end of the year!

I like the ham sandwich metaphor.
 

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