When Tesla releases what they consider FSD and I get a chance to try it then I'll be able to answer the OPS question. Until then its just a whole lot of guessing.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Would you trust FSD?
- Thread starter z06tim
- Start date
At Level 3, the car is responsible for alerting the driver when the driver must take over. The driver can take hands off the wheel and stop watching the road, until the car sounds an alert for the driver to take over.
Today's systems are not Level 3, even "a dash." Today's systems require the driver to remain fully alert at all times, and it is the driver's responsibility to take over when needed. The car will sometimes alert the driver to take over, but it is still the driver's responsibility to make that decision at any time.
AP, and EAP are both Level 2. And for a long time after the "FSD" package diverges from EAP (which hasn't happened yet except in the screen visualization) that will be Level 2 as well.
Dan203
Active Member
You are correct I do not have them. I was unwilling to pay $80/mo extra on my lease for few features that are beta at best and the promise that they'll get better over time.
If it adds $6-$7k in value for you then great, glad you're happy. I would not be.
I do have auto-pilot, with auto steer, and have played with that. It's useless to me. It freaks out when lanes merge or divide, which is common around here, and the fact that you have to keep tugging the wheel every 30 seconds means I can't just let it drive with my hand lightly resting on the wheel like others claim to do. (apparently HW3 does not just accept constant pressure, you have to physically tug the wheel a little to satisfy the warning)
I do use the auto cruise control part all the time, but I had that in my 340i so that's nothing special. The Tesla system is slightly better as it doesn't brake quite as aggressively when someone cuts in, and has a closer minimum follow distance. But that was free and not part of the $6k (now $7k) FSD package.
This is interesting, and if true, makes me glad that I have HW2.5. I love EAP, but the only feature I ever use that's not part of AP is auto lane-change with a flick of the turn signal stalk. I've never even tried summon or auto-park. The one time I wanted to use auto-park, because it was a tight parking spot, the car didn't recognize it and didn't offer to park for me. And NoA is only for freeways, which we don't have here. So if my car were totaled and I needed a replacement, I would not pay for "FSD." Until it exists, that is.
I will say that autosteer got a lot better since I bought my car. I use it a lot and I love it. It is FAAAAAAAR from perfect. But it's worth every penny I paid for it. And I really hope they get to Level 3 while I'm still above ground.
No way. I LOVE tesla, I'm totally obsessed, but FSD isn't a thing and won't be for the foreseeable future despite what Elon says; the problem is just way too complex for current technology. Likely within the next 10 years you'll have certain routes in certain cities that are "FSD compatible" and some individuals will be able to make their commute on these routes, but general purpose FSD isn't happening any time soon.
SteveS1979
Member
I'm curious as to your experience and expertise in the area. Are you involved in development of autonomous systems?
Not in my experience, I haven't had to change my hand-on-wheel-with-autosteer driving style since getting the HW3 retrofit.
Once Tesla has some FSD product as defined by their marketing pages, I'll have to see what its capabilities are in the real world before I decide whether to trust it or not....
linux-works
Active Member
I'm finding that just the natural bumpiness of roads and the stiff suspension causes my arms to satisfy the torque hunger (lol) and I rarely get nags. I drive rt101 (for the locals who know it) and in santa clara and, well, almost all of our big roads, there is enough non-flatness to cause any arms on the wheel to move. if you just rest your hand there, it should go with the flow and that keeps the nags away 
maybe those that get nags are holding the wheel too stiffly? uhm, [apple]you're holding it wrong[/apple]
maybe those that get nags are holding the wheel too stiffly? uhm, [apple]you're holding it wrong[/apple]
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I guess I find it weird you're SUPER SURE that features you don't have, have never used, and have made clear you don't even really fully understand, aren't "worth it"
It sounds a lot like a kid who insists he doesn't like a food he's never tried.
Also, as I mentioned, being an EAP owner, it didn't cost 6-7k to get those features.
DaFunGuy
Member
"Soon" is a relative term. AP/EAP have been in beta for four or five years now and I've not seen any indication that Tesla is planning to remove the beta designation any time soon. I believe that full autonomy is coming, but right now I'd be surprised if it's here within a decade. I have no expertise in such systems, but I'm observing the rate of progress, and it's very slow.
I think I paid $5K for EAP. Plain AP was not an option. Now, plain AP is included in the base price, but you need to pay for "FSD" just to get the upgrade from AP to EAP. If I were buying now, I would not pay that. AP is worth every penny I paid. The additional features of EAP are not, for me.
The thing about NoA is that, while it's a step in the road towards FSD, plain AP does the driving about 95% of the time, and those other features add, what, maybe another 2 or 3%? Except for South Kihei Road, which is a narrow 2-lane road and for much of its length has no sidewalks or shoulders so pedestrians and bicycles are very close to, and sometimes in, the driving lanes, most of the rest of my driving is handled fine by AP except for turns and stop lights, and even stop lights are handled by AP if there's a car in front of me.
"Feature-complete FSD" won't have much interest for me until it's at least Level 3. I think we're at least ten years away from that. But I'd pay for Level 3 AP on the highway.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
EAP hasn't even existed that long.
It was only introduced a little over 3 years ago- and as a totally new product because of the mobileye breakup after AP1 so they were starting from scratch and only "caught back up" to rough parity with AP1 in most cases maybe 18 months ago? And only began surpassing it (with things like NavonAP) maybe 15 months ago.
FWIW Elon doesn't use beta in the traditional (this isn't a product that should even be used by the public) sense... here he is on twitter explaining it:
Elon Musk said:
It is (for all but the SR)- but they raised the price of the car 2-3k to cover that.... (and indeed it's a $3000 add-on for SR buyers)
You're not supposed to be using AP on lots of those roads of course
That aside- as I said before, the value of the features beyond basic AP will vary greatly by location....from the driving I've done on various Hawaiian islands I don't think I'd get much value either out of anything beyond basic AP other than, maybe, Oahu.... but the other islands are not typical of a lot of driving folks on the mainland might spend a fair bit of time doing.
MobileClimate
Member
I find it works really good most of the time .. but like yesterday while cruising down a 2 lane hwy it didn't cross the double yellow but it did ride on top of it .its not perfect and i dont know if it ever will be .
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Of course it's explicitly not intended to be used on a road like that....
I wonder how many folks don't "trust" the current system because they keep seeing it occasional poorly handle something it's not even intended to handle in the first place.
MobileClimate
Member
I have tested over 50 navigate on autopilot highway off ramp maneuvers and it has done that perfect for me i have been very impressed with the exit highway braking and turning
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
My problem with NoAP is how consistently inconsistent it can be even on the same roads daily irrespective of traffic. It could perform flawlessly like the other day or horrendously bad trying to make me exit where it doesn’t need to exit the next drive (again, traffic irrespective)
I have found that keeping your speeds to 70 and under seems to enhance its “confidence” in general with less sway, much less uneasyness on gore points/exits.
I have found that keeping your speeds to 70 and under seems to enhance its “confidence” in general with less sway, much less uneasyness on gore points/exits.
Dan203
Active Member
I tried the auto lane change thing in a test drive car that had FSD. I did not try auto park, navigate on autopilot or summon. (summon was demonstrated to me, but this was just the old forward/back one as enhanced summon did not exist back then) The lane change seemed silly because you had to manually click the blinker and it took forever because it seemed overly cautious. Auto park isn't useful to me because I can count the number of times I've needed to parallel park in the last 5 years on one hand. NOAP doesn’t seem that useful if there is the possibility it will miss your route. (GPS and maps exist everywhere, there is no excuse for this) Regular summon is not something I'd ever use because if a space is truly that narrow, I wouldn’t want to park there anyway for fear of dings. And enhanced summon seems like a party trick with a law suit just waiting to happen. Nothing there is worth $6k (or $80/mo) to me, which is what it cost when I bought my car.
You have an older car so I wonder if you have HW3 yet? In my car, when auto steer is enabled you have to literally tug the wheel every 20-30 seconds so that it knows you're there. Applying constant pressure does not work. I think this was added to HW3 to prevent the trick where you just hang a weight off the wheel. Because of this it makes auto steer a lot less useful, IMHO. It's more work to constantly tug the wheel then to just steer by yourself. And you have to tug it just right. Hard enough that it registers but not had enough to disengage the system. It's really not a relaxing experience. Auto cruise control is great and takes some stress off the driver. In my experience with auto steer it adds stress, it doesn’t take it away.
Dan203
Active Member
Maybe I'm not holding it right, but if I just hold the wheel in and way that is actually comfortable to me it complains. I have to give the wheel a little tug to satisfy it. And I've read others on here with newer cars say the same thing. Maybe something in the physical hardware of the wheel changed and not just HW3?
I have expertise in machine learning systems including computer vision (face and object recognition), but not in the particular area of autonomous vehicles. Admittedly they are not exactly the same, but there is some overlap.
Similar threads
