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I don't necessarily agree with this. Having something be simpler doesn't necessarily make it cheaper, and vice versa. Fairly certain a 2-cycle gas engine is more complex and cheaper than a Model S motor, for instance. It's not like the Model S only has a battery and 1 or 2 motors. I would find it difficult to believe that the drivetrain of an M5/6 is more expensive than the Model S (including battery). I could be wrong, however.

JohnSnowNW, don't take my word for it, go look for it online. The Tesla motor is under $1000, and might be slightly over $1000 if you include all the support electronics. An ICE engine will likely run $5000-$9000. And that doesn't include the muffler system, radiator, oil lines, gas lines, etc. A Model-S is significantly more simple and cheaper to build than any ICE vehicle. And it should be cheaper and more simple to maintain too!

Also, there have already been many articles written about battery packs being cheaper than people's expectations. The numbers being thrown about is $144 kWh. That would mean that a 85kWh battery pack would cost just over $12,000. And that's retail price! Wholesale would be much cheaper still.
 
Does it turn a crank pushing pistons in sleeves burning oil? Then it's a crappy cobbling together of 19th century technologies, and I won't be buying it regardless of the type of seat ventilation and other driver assist crutches that make one believe, appearantly, that they have bought something fancy when it's just a cushier version of the same old junk. Tesla drivetrain has ONE moving part. Oops, 2 now, I guess :biggrin: ICE powered have hundreds plus the massive ancillary support system of fuel delivery, cooling, electrical, & exhaust that really just make it one big sad joke. Have I made myself clear?! Ha! :rolleyes:
 
I don't see how you can ignore the drivetrain. You'd never present someone with a 5 series BMW and so 'oh, and it has a state of the art 140hp inline 4 cylinder engine'. Sure, compare the luxury features but no one car can have everything.

Well, that *too* comes down to perspective. ;) Regional perspective in this case.

BMW makes big hay about its state of the art in-line 4 diesel for the 5 Series in Europe getting under 120 g/km CO2 (or somesuch number), which is important for company car policies (and taxes) in Europe.

The engine has 150 horsepower.

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The actual reason why the Model-S was lacking high-end luxury features is because Tesla is a new company and its going to take them time to implement each and every one of these luxury features. Over time, they'll eventually catch up and will likely surpass everyone else. It's very similar to the very first iPhone that didn't even have cut&paste or the ability to send MMS messages. It just took time for Apple to get around to adding these features and getting it right in the process. Tesla wouldn't be around today if they waited until they had every single luxury item in the very first car they sold.

Agreed. This is the reason. And nothing stops Tesla from upping to price for those extra features by making them optional, so hopefully eventually they will catch up - and that eventually hopefully is at Model X launch for most part, because I'm not sure ordering a Model X that's basically P85D Auto-pilot with Falcon Wings and a plusher second row is very enticing... What most us want is the possibility to get somewhat of a feature equivalency, not necessarily arguing for price equivalency (even though you make some nice points about the actual cost too).

Personally, I don't need the Model X to have everything my past Germans have had, but considering I already have the Classic Model S where I made significant concessions to jump on board of EV thing, features-wise, I am hoping for significant advances still compared to the current Model S - making those concessions for a second time does not sound so inviting.

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First and foremost you are paying for an EV drive-train, and to a lesser extent exclusivity (whether this is important to you or not). Expecting to pay the same amount as similarly equipped luxury ICE vehicles doesn't seem practical.

I don't think people are arguing for price equivalency, but that vehicles in a certain class (I understand Model S tries to compete with at least the 5 Series of this world, if not 7 Series) can be expected to have certain features. Make them priced optional extras, if you must, I doubt that is an issue for many - for example myself in Europe have gotten used to paying through my teeth for the options list where everything basically is optional.

Reading Gwgan's comment, it actually wasn't that long ago when electric rear windows and air-conditioning were extra cost options in some German premiums (granted, not on the 7 Series level). :) It is a matter of years, not decades. I know the U.S. market is different and insulated from these realities, though.

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The drivetrain is the reason I reserved the X and the reason that I almost did not. With it's benefits also come some negatives. In the end, I believed the balance tipped more towards the benefits.

However, that equation is not the same for all customers and certainly not for all markets. China is probably an example of a market where the Model S is lacking compared to other luxury autos and the drivetrain is viewed as a negative rather than a positive. Thus the poor sales performance. I expect Tesla has learned from that experience and is one reason why the 2nd row seating is such a priority in the X development.

China is a good question. But equally any very densely populated urban area consisting mostly of apartment buildings and parking on the street or in various public or private garages of many kinds.

A lot of the people on this forum come from places where they live in separate houses of their own, most probably even have garages, but at least some fairly accessible and rudimentary way of charging nightly - even if it means taking the extension cord from the bathroom to the car on their driveway. Even 240V or somesuch will be enough, if you commute relatively short distances - you don't even have to plug-in every night. And of course when you own your house, your chances of being able to install faster chargers are high. People with their own yard and house have many options when it comes to EVs, if they come back to that house every night.

But all this changes when you talk of apartment buildings, let alone the kind, type and density they have in Asia. Your house may not have a dedicated parking garage - or if you do, it might even be a robot that stacks cars on top of each other, or some other location where installations are not easy or practical, for example you may not have a dedicated spot. You may have to park in some pay-per-month garage some blocks from your home where you can't hope to install anything anyway. Some who live in apartments, park on the street wherever they can find a free place that night.

Now, in addition to that, China of course has some very unique requirements when it comes to cars. They prefer extended-wheelbase cars with rear amenities so much that German premiums like Audi and BMW actually make unique "L" versions of even smaller premiums for China, with special executive rear seat options, because so many Chinese - even those who buy a smaller premium car - are chauffeured. This is of course why there is the executive back seat option for Model S, but it is still quite a small convenience compared to the stretched, rear-seat entertained, seat-ventilated, massaged options of the Germans.

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I will add to my expectations that it will NOT feature DRIVE PX, primarily because the system is far too new to throw into a production vehicle. I know Tesla likes to take the hardware first, software later approach, but with DRIVE PX just being made available to manufacturers this month, it's far too late in Model X development to add it to the initial production version. They have to have locked in the electronics configuration long ago.

While it is possible DRIVE PX won't make it to the first Model X vehicles - and might come, say a year later, if it is coming at all - I'm not sure your reasoning would necessarily be correct, though.

If Tesla is a key nVidia partner, it doesn't seem far-fetched the DRIVE PX might even have been developed hand in hand with the Model X and Tesla might have priority access. It might even be one reason for Model X's delayed launch schedule (once they decided not to launch it with D and Auto-pilot last year). Even the launch timing seems so suspicious, how much of a chance it is that Elon Musk was *at* the DRIVE PX launch discussing Model X and the final DRIVE PX is being released to manufacturers the same exact time Tesla is saying having started to build release-candidates of Model X... If DRIVE PX was developed alongside the Model X, and it is now ready for others too, having it ready for manufacturing come late Q3 sounds perfectly possible.

Of course, all this assumes Tesla collaborated on the DRIVE PX and had priority access - and are not just now ordering samples from nVidia. Tesla may not even be the only car maker to have had beta-access to DRIVE PX. Beta Model X's may have been built with beta DRIVE PX's and now that DRIVE PX is done, Tesla is building release candidates around it.

Then again, the latest conference call suggested not to expect too much of a difference between first Model X and current Model S, if I read correctly somewhere. Was this just said to not Osbourne the Model X or because the first Model X's will miss out on "Auto-pilot 2", it is hard to say.
 
I've got 5 kids... I just want room for my family and all their stuff. I'm hoping the X has at least 40 cu ft behind the 3rd row (that's about what our sienna has). If the X ends up being less practical than our van it will be no X for me as I wouldn't want to replace my P85 with a Model X.
 
JohnSnowNW, don't take my word for it, go look for it online. The Tesla motor is under $1000, and might be slightly over $1000 if you include all the support electronics. An ICE engine will likely run $5000-$9000. And that doesn't include the muffler system, radiator, oil lines, gas lines, etc. A Model-S is significantly more simple and cheaper to build than any ICE vehicle. And it should be cheaper and more simple to maintain too!

Also, there have already been many articles written about battery packs being cheaper than people's expectations. The numbers being thrown about is $144 kWh. That would mean that a 85kWh battery pack would cost just over $12,000. And that's retail price! Wholesale would be much cheaper still.

Fine, but that's speculation. Even if they have it down to $144/kWh, which I think is closer to $180/kWh, you still have the cost of the pack management equipment. I can't argue the point of the motors being around $1000...but that seems pretty low to me...regardless of the simplicity. Even in your example we're looking at $14,000 (I'll just stick to the retail amount you've mentioned because I believe the price is higher) for the cost of the batteries and motor, without the other drivetrain equipment.

As for the ICE, exhaust, radiators, oil and gas lines, etc... are relatively inexpensive. From what I've gleaned ICE engines cost around $5/hp...so that would make an M5 engine around $3k.

I'm not an expert, but I just think you're being a bit conservative on the cost of an EV, and the opposite for ICE.
 
I don't think people are arguing for price equivalency, but that vehicles in a certain class (I understand Model S tries to compete with at least the 5 Series of this world, if not 7 Series) can be expected to have certain features.

That pretty much sums it up. And so here's what I say to that: We're talking about Tesla. I shouldn't have to say any more than that, but for those who are new or slow to pick up on the Tesla trend: Tesla has always and likely will always be different. They are changing the automotive industry, therefore what one currently expects in a vehicle of a specific segment isn't necessarily what you'll find with Tesla or what you're going to find in the future. (Hello, cupholders anyone?) If you're stuck in a box of expectations, or have closed your mind to what is possible or what is, then this is probably not the company or vehicle for you. You'll just have to wait for those traditional OEMS to produce their version of an SUV/CUV EV.

One could just as easily say now, 'When I buy a car out of the luxury segment I expect instant torque. I don't want it to take all day long to get up to speed. I also expect regular OTA updates that refresh my vehicle, advance it, and make it more than it was when I bought it and I expect those updates to be free and done at my convenience. And I really expect to be able to fill up in my own garage at night, or in the parking lot where I work, or, or, or.' And in 2017, 'When I spend 35k+ on a car I expect (what I just typed).' That's the flip side that Bonnie and others have been expressing.

So again, if you're expecting your 100k+ Model X to come with disco lights, a fish tank...prepare to be disappointed. Know, though, that your reservation cancellation is going to make someone at the end of the line a happy camper, so it's all good.
 
That pretty much sums it up. And so here's what I say to that: We're talking about Tesla. I shouldn't have to say any more than that, but for those who are new or slow to pick up on the Tesla trend: Tesla has always and likely will always be different. They are changing the automotive industry, therefore what one currently expects in a vehicle of a specific segment isn't necessarily what you'll find with Tesla or what you're going to find in the future. (Hello, cupholders anyone?) If you're stuck in a box of expectations, or have closed your mind to what is possible or what is, then this is probably not the company or vehicle for you. You'll just have to wait for those traditional OEMS to produce their version of an SUV/CUV EV.

One could just as easily say now, 'When I buy a car out of the luxury segment I expect instant torque. I don't want it to take all day long to get up to speed. I also expect regular OTA updates that refresh my vehicle, advance it, and make it more than it was when I bought it and I expect those updates to be free and done at my convenience. And I really expect to be able to fill up in my own garage at night, or in the parking lot where I work, or, or, or.' And in 2017, 'When I spend 35k+ on a car I expect (what I just typed).' That's the flip side that Bonnie and others have been expressing.

So again, if you're expecting your 100k+ Model X to come with disco lights, a fish tank...prepare to be disappointed. Know, though, that your reservation cancellation is going to make someone at the end of the line a happy camper, so it's all good.
Completely agree, everyone keeps comparing Tesla to all other traditional car manufactures and if that is what you want then do not buy a Tesla. It's a different car company and do not forget it is still a start-up, and yes they have problems in many areas but eventually will get those resolved. As I have said before I work for those car dealerships for my career, Mercedes, Volvo, Nissan and was responsible for Parts and Service. I do not have room to go into all the problems we had with these cars over the years so they are not perfect either.
 
I own and operate a very basic car (8th Generation 2011 Honda Civic sedan), so my perspective on "must have" lists is perhaps a bit different than many here. My car has no sensors, no auto-adjust headlights, and no cameras. All I've got is fairly good road visibility through the window glass, and I've never felt that a ton of sensors would have helped. Then again, my car is much smaller than a Model S or X, and has minimal blind spots (driver's side A-pilar during a left turn is the only minor impediment).

I think that the spec sheet feature list is far less important than having everything work in a user-friendly manner. Having all the sensors, cameras, and other gadgets doesn't mean much if they overload the driver with data and Nagging Nora alerts. Does the feature actually add value, or is it a gimmick?

I believe, therefore, that prospective Model X buyers should rely on their own test drives and actual product reviews (from early adopters and/or car magazines) to make their decision, rather than outright refusing to consider a purchase due to lack of X, Y, or Z feature.
 
If you are not blown away by the electric drive train, the zippiness, the total control of where you want your vehicle to be in traffic situations, the ability to fuel at home, the quietness - then Model S is not for you. To me everything else is fluff.

It is the same reason I believe Model S is popular in the US, but not in China. IMHO Chinese owners who sit in the rear seat and have a driver to chauffeur around and presumably have the car always topped off by the driver, will end up nitpicking rear seats, leather quality, rear DVD players, absence of 4 way climate control and such
 
There is nothing wrong in expecting features available in other manufacturers. If I remember, the Model S did not have cruise control in the beginning and many reviewers complained. After all, it is close to $100k in price, why not have such expectations. Eventually, Tesla came out with it and surpassed other manufacturers. Similarly other car makers are playing catch up. I remember why I said that I wanted a 400 mile range, the reason being that my wife goes on a yoga training in a part of California that does not have superchargers and is nervous about it. Many people in this forum said that you do not need it, individual needs are different. The minute another manufacturer comes out with an electric car with a range over 300 miles (Audi said that it will, wonder when), Tesla will do the same. After car making is a competition and companies left behind will face the wrath of the customers.
 
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There are two very distinct perspectives in this thread. I am going to take heat for this in a Tesla forum, but here goes. (Keep in mind that I reserved a Sig Model X):

Camp 1: I will label this the 'Tesla Fanboy Camp'. This camp seems to believe that because the car is electric, all else is to be forgiven. Tesla is a new innovative company with the best electric car, therefore nothing can be compared to them. They rightfully point out that the S has exceptional torque and accelerates like nothing else. The S has very few moving parts and requires far less maintenance. The cost to fuel the car is far less than other luxury cars. The car fuels itself while you sleep, so no trips to a gas station. They believe nothing compares to the Tesla because they are saving the planet by driving electric rather than dirty planet death causing ICE luxury autos. With the drivetrain benefits, also comes some negatives that this group fails to mention (maybe even fails to recognize due to Fanboy Blindness). The drivetrain benefits come at a pretty high price premium compared to other high end luxury autos (not exact comparison because no other ICE has this level of torque, but premium is still present). The drivetrain also still comes with some limitations regarding long distance travel. As of today, a trip from Florida to Ohio would require a very inefficient route using superchargers. At a minimum, any travel out of town requires far more planning than with any other luxury auto. The future will be different as the supercharger network is built out, but today is reality. This group fails to recognize that the interior of the S as well as the options offered was especially lacking prior to Fall 2014 and is still somewhat deficient as compared to other luxury autos.

Camp 2: I will label this the "Realist Camp'. This camp agrees that the Model S is an exceptional vehicle built by and amazing, innovative company. This camp recognizes that what Tesla has been able to do in it's relatively short existence is nothing short of a miracle. However, this camp believes in evaluating the car on it's performance and feature set as compared to other luxury autos they may consider purchasing. The performance and smooth operation of the drivetrain are superior to other luxury autos. Point(s) to Tesla. The negative aspects of the out of town travel detracts from the Tesla points, but the advantage still points to Tesla for me. This is not the case for some buyers in the US and many in China. The cost of operation (fueling and maintenance) are lower with the Tesla than an ICE luxury auto. Point(s) to Tesla. Some, but not all in this camp, give the Tesla points for reducing carbon emissions and reducing dependence on foreign oil. Point(s) to Tesla. The interior of the Model S is lacking compared to other luxury autos. The Gen 2 seats are an improvement, but still are not the quality offered by others. The lack of seat cooling, as an example, is a glaring weakness that many $30,000 cars offer, let alone $100,000+ luxury autos. At that level, cooling is a given and massage is optional. Point(s) to ICE Luxury autos. The driver interface in the Tesla is awesome with OTA updates for continuous improvement. Luxury ICE autos have learned from Tesla and are moving quickly to catch-up. Point(s) to Tesla. Tesla has made improvements to the technology offered in the S with the autopilot sensors added in late 2014. While Tesla has moved to catch-up to other luxury and even mid level offerings, they are still lacking many safety and convenience features offered on cars at a far lower price point. Point(s) ICE Luxury autos. The Tesla does sell for a price premium over a comparable luxury ICE auto. Fanboys will argue that there is no automobile that compares so a price comparison is impossible. That is not reality. The federal tax credit somewhat lowers this price premium. Point(s) ICE Luxury autos.

Everyone's calculation will be different. In my case, the calculation showed the Tesla to be the right choice for me. My only point is that the calculation was far closer than it should have been. Improvements to the interior and the feature offerings would have made it a slam dunk for Tesla.

I would argue that there are far more Realists in the world than Fanboys (clearly not on this forum though). I believe that Tesla recognizes this same calculation and is moving to make the calculation a slam dunk. The changes to the S in Fall 2014 (interior and autopilot) were huge steps in the right direction and I expect that Tesla will make another huge leap forward with the X.
 
Can't imagine why you'd take any heat for segregating people into two distinct types and naming them "fanboys" and "realists". Segregation of humans into groups and naming them with derogatory or flattering terms (depending on which one you fall into) seems totally reasonable.
 
Agree. There are many kinds of people who like or dislike the car for many reasons and to classify one as 'fanboys' who have no objectivity isn't right either. Sure those people exist but there are also people who think the drivetrain really is that important but understand that there are features lacking and just don't put as much weight on them as heads up displays and 360 degree cameras. That doesn't make them stupid or blinded by their absolute love for all things Tesla.
 
Can't imagine why you'd take any heat for segregating people into two distinct types and naming them "fanboys" and "realists". Segregation of humans into groups and naming them with derogatory or flattering terms (depending on which one you fall into) seems totally reasonable.

Politically correct - No. Reality - yes. We group people into groups everyday. Republican, Democrat. American, German. Liberal, Conservative. etc etc etc. This forum has been less than kind to anyone with even a neutral opinion of Tesla and I believe many on here would carry the term fanboy as a badge of honor.
 
Politically correct - No. Reality - yes. We group people into groups everyday. Republican, Democrat. American, German. Liberal, Conservative. etc etc etc. This forum has been less than kind to anyone with even a neutral opinion of Tesla and I believe many on here would carry the term fanboy as a badge of honor.

Disagree. Plenty of people here are critical of Tesla and they are rarely if ever shouted down. That kind of behavior isn't allowed. Sure, this is an enthusiast site so plenty of people who love their car will argue with someone and try to explain why they enjoy the car so much but that doesn't mean they lack intelligence or any objectivity as the 'fanboy' term implies.
 
Feels like we don't have enough new real information about the X and the nearer the release comes, the harder it gets. (Probably I'm only talking of/to myself and it's no answer to any of the last posts)

Maybe "closing TMC till July" is a solution?

Greetings@all
Realistic German Fanboy
 
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This forum has been less than kind to anyone with even a neutral opinion of Tesla and I believe many on here would carry the term fanboy as a badge of honor.

I think it's more realistic to acknowledge cost constraints than fault a company for not including features of similarly priced vehicles. The realities are that you're complaining about offerings at a certain price point from a company that has only truly existed in the market for 3 years.

Lets be realistic here, your idea of "realism" is just your opinion.