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MaxK, I happen to agree with some of your views. There definitely tends to be a feeling of "giving a pass" or "apologizing" for Tesla on the forum, though it's natural since this is an enthusiast forum. I'd recommend toning it down though.

Yes, you're going to get an overwhelming number of people disagreeing and offering counter-points to most things negatively stated about the company and their cars, but the best thing to do (IMO) is make your point clear, concise and move on. Going back and forth only leads to negativity and then your points get lost in feelings of "he's a troll" (or worse) and get dismissed when ad hominem attacks get in the mix.

Thanks AnOutsider. Good advice. I will move on.
 
How is a premium sedan different than a luxury automobile? How is a premium sedan equivalent to a Performance EV as John limited the Tesla segment. Performance EV is a sub-set of premium sedan and premium sedan is equal to luxury automobile. Research completed.

Can you quote your source for that research? I find them to be pretty loosely defined, but it's possible there's some kind of published hierarchy.

I think I can address this, because the very subject has been debated in Honda/Acura forums for much of the past decade.

First, I don't think there's any official or published source for Premium vs. Luxury. However, there does seem to be a line in the minds of auto enthusiasts between "Premium" brands (like Acura, Buick, Infiniti) and "Luxury" brands (BMW, MB, Audi, Porche, etc.). In my observation it comes down to 2 basic things: (1) interior opulence and (2) early adopter technologies.

Acura, as an example of "Premium", is essentially a nicer Honda. The Acura TLX, for example, is built on the Honda Accord platform and uses the same basic engines, with some variation in ECU tuning, exhaust systems, and injectors. The interior materials are a bit nicer, there's more sound insulation, and there are a few more tech features. Honda has also given Acuras more advanced transmissions in order to differentiate the vehicles further. However, Honda usually tends to stick with "tried and true" engineering.

This is different from the Mercedes Benz approach. A Benz generally has a unique RWD platform not shared with a mainstream car. MB is also quicker to offer the latest in engines, transmissions, and tech features. The interiors are much nicer in terms of materials and design. The trade off is a higher sticker price and typically lower reliability. Most of the luxury German brands adopted tech like gasoline Direct Injection much sooner than their Japanese competitors. Owners of some of these cars paid the price in terms of experiencing their engines being fouled due to problems with early generation DI systems.

Tesla is unsurprisingly an oddball that doesn't fit neatly into the existing Premium/Luxury hierarchy. Some Tesla features, like large battery dual motor powertrain, Supercharging, and OTA firmware updates are "early adopter" tech that is exclusive. However, as others have noted, Tesla interiors are Spartan at their price point, and Tesla lagged behind in some features like ACC and Lane Keeping Assist, at least until Autopilot rollout.

For these reasons I think the Premium/Luxury debate applied to Tesla is pointless.

The important question is whether a given Tesla vehicle, as a whole, is more or is less compelling than another vehicle being considered for purchase. Line by line feature comparisons do a poor job of characterizing vehicles as complete systems.
 
I do think the discussion has been useful in showing that Tesla really does not fit existing categorization of automotive companies.

True as that may be so far, is there any reason to expect things will continue that way with Model X?

I mean, sure, we can expect to still miss some features, but overall isn't the reasonable expectation Tesla will catch up over time.

It isn't like Tesla is dismissing all convenience and safety features on purpose, just to make a different kind of car, other than inability to deliver so far.

(And I'm not talking about a design philosophy of less is more in interior styling. Most of the missing stuff really isn't about that.)
 
True as that may be so far, is there any reason to expect things will continue that way with Model X?

I mean, sure, we can expect to still miss some features, but overall isn't the reasonable expectation Tesla will catch up over time.

It isn't like Tesla is dismissing all convenience and safety features on purpose, just to make a different kind of car, other than inability to deliver so far.

First you make the assumption Tesla wants to 'catch up'. I'd say that Elon has no desire to offer an opulent interior, ever, as an example. He does want to do autonomous driving. So yes, I believe Tesla will continue just as they have with no desire to copy anyone just for the sake of copying. Many of the features that Tesla has added recently were always planned, they just simply couldn't do it all at once. They had to get the Model S out and on the road to move forward.

Tesla will continue to go down the path they feel is best to achieve their ultimate goal. Maybe when they've done the Model 3, and the small CUV, and the pickup, and Roadster (what version are we on now?), and the auto industry has shaken itself out of the ICE age, then Tesla may offer a luxury vehicle with the opulent interior that some seem to prefer, but there's no indication at this point that it will be before. But hey, maybe we'll all be blown away and Model X will have those interior disco lights and enough buttons to open a shirt shop.
 
First you make the assumption Tesla wants to 'catch up'. I'd say that Elon has no desire to offer an opulent interior, ever, as an example. He does want to do autonomous driving. So yes, I believe Tesla will continue just as they have with no desire to copy anyone just for the sake of copying. Many of the features that Tesla has added recently were always planned, they just simply couldn't do it all at once. They had to get the Model S out and on the road to move forward.

Tesla will continue to go down the path they feel is best to achieve their ultimate goal. Maybe when they've done the Model 3, and the small CUV, and the pickup, and Roadster (what version are we on now?), and the auto industry has shaken itself out of the ICE age, then Tesla may offer a luxury vehicle with the opulent interior that some seem to prefer, but there's no indication at this point that it will be before.

Yes, in the spirit of this thread I expect Tesla to play catch up on a certain number of features. Even Apple, with very unique design goals for iPhone, played catch up for a number of years, adding features the competition had. Adding planned features, that they couldn't do all at once, certainly constitutes as playing catch up, so there Tesla is playing catch up. OTOH, I also agree Tesla similarly has certain unique design goals they are not interested in changing. Perhaps spartan interiors is one of those. Then again, they already added improved seating and executive rear seats (with cup holders...). In other areas, for sure, competition is playing catch up.

However, Model S is definitely a high-end premium sedan/hatchback. I have argued in another thread it isn't really necessarily competing with the A8s and 7 Series of this world (or other cars in the more opulent end of the spectrum), other than fighting in part for the same customers, but it definitely is competing in size, style and practicality with the likes of Audi A7 or BMW 5 GT - and compared to those it is still missing a large number of safety and convenience features, even if we exclude the highest of the high end.

But hey, maybe we'll all be blown away and Model X will have those interior disco lights and enough buttons to open a shirt shop.

Don't be silly. Nobody on this thread is expecting Tesla to forgo their touch-based, software-first use paradigm, anymore than they expect Apple to add a number keyboard to the iPhone.