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Yellow dashed line at 320kw

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Mike K, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Mike K

    Mike K Member

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    This is driving me mad. The car is a 2013 85kwh. Weather in LA lately has been cold so it's not a temperature issue as far as I can tell. Plus my other S85 didn't do it at all. State of charge is anywhere from 60 - 90%.

    More or less if I punch the throttle on the expressway it's capping output at 320kw and showing the little yellow dash lined in the power usage gauge around the 320kw mark. This is generally just at expressway speeds but it's annoying nonetheless. I have a low VIN and an A series pack. Does that play into things at all?

    I spent a bunch of time in Chicago with a rental P85 that didn't do this at all and spent nearly a month with my last S85 which also didn't do it at all. This one does it with regularity. Is it just me or should I add this to my laundry list of oddities to share at my next service appointment?
     
  2. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    With V7, the yellow line appears more frequently than with previous versions. I don't believe the A battery has anything to do with it (but of course Tesla doesn't say).
     
  3. Todd Burch

    Todd Burch Electron Pilot

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    Doesn't sound normal to me, even with v7, unless you're driving ridiculously illegal speeds on the highway. A punch of the throttle from, say, 40 to 90 with the pedal floored shouldn't cause the line to appear. I'd call tech support. Maybe they can investigate remotely.
     
  4. Mike K

    Mike K Member

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    Thanks guys. Can you tell me under what circumstances it would appear? From my understanding it should only be if the battery is too cold (not a problem in California) or too hot to deliver full current to the motor. Is that correct?
     
  5. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    I don't know for certain, but I suspect it will also appear at very low states of charge.
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    It can appear when the battery is cold or when the battery is too hot. Saw it briefly today myself, but only under hard acceleration, the battery had cold soaked at about 30F or less all day.
     
  7. swegman

    swegman Member

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    I had it happen to me under V7 when using the nav on a trip. The nav had previously warned me to slow down in order to reach my destination. When I got that notice, I called Tesla, because I thought I had sufficient charge. They remotely checked the status, and confirmed I was fine to reach my supercharger destination (told me this part of the nav s/w was still beta), so I ignored the warning. When I thereafter punched the accelerator, the yellow line appeared, limiting my acceleration.
     
  8. Mike K

    Mike K Member

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    Yeah see, that's the thing. It's been 55 here all day. Freezing by Los Angeles standards but still quite warm. Plus I don't think I've ever gone under 50% SOC.

    I'll give tech support a ring and report back.
     
  9. Mike K

    Mike K Member

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    So Tesla has no idea. They ran the logs and gave me a list of all the reasons this could happen (battery too cold, battery too warm, etc) but I re-iterated the fact that it happens literally every time I hit this power level, regardless of state of charge, speed, temperature, etc. It seems like they didn't look at the logs they supposedly pulled because I'm sure the logs would tell them specifically why power is being cut.

    So they're going to have a tech go over them and get back to me. The car is due to go in on the 22nd either way.
     
  10. Cowby

    Cowby Member

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    #10 Cowby, Jan 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016

    maybe (left in) Valet mode?
     
  11. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

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    Temperature in LA has been in the 40s overnight, that would cause the yellow line
    It does on mine every morning
     
  12. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    That yellow line appeared on a loaner car whenever I exceeded 80 MPH. That particular loaner was not speed limited, but the behavior with the line was odd enough that I reported it to the service team. My 2013 P85 w/ B pack doesn't do that. However, something has changed with regards to cold weather behavior in version 7. I did a 1,500 mile round trip to California a few weeks ago. Temps were in the 40s and 50s. At every Supercharger stop I was warned that available energy would be substantially reduced if the temperature dropped further. This alert popped up after driving 100-200 miles at 75-85 MPH when temps were in the mid 40s to mid 50s. I never received this alert in this temperature range prior to version 7. And shouldn't the car be heating the pack anyway? Range mode was OFF.
     
  13. Mike K

    Mike K Member

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    The line appears regardless of temperature, state of charge, etc. And unlike the line that shows up when it's too cold, this line only appears when you have the throttle applied.
     
  14. whitecotton

    whitecotton Member

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    My car does the exact same but I can go through the limit briefly.

    - - - Updated - - -


    My car does the exact same but I can go through the limit briefly.
     
  15. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    If temperature conditions are nominal, and SoC isn't very high or very low, then the yellow line is in response voltage sag and the car hitting the amperage limiter during acceleration. The P85 and S85 have different amperage limits. I believe the P85 is around 1200A and the S85 is somewhere between 900 and 1000A. So, The P85 is less likely to hit an amperage limit under acceleration than the S85. 320kW at 900A needs a voltage, after the voltage sag due to pack internal resistance, of something like 355V. This is pretty high, and you can probably only get 320kW from an S85 at pretty high SoC (I'd guess > 90%). See the graph I made a while back that plots HP vs pack amps.

    In any case, 320 kW is probably only really achievable on an S85 at higher SoC, and for short periods. The limiter slowly comes down below 320kW steadily as SoC drops.

    What you're probably seeing is that in v7 the limiter shows up even for the initial limitations, where in prior versions it would wait to show it until the limiter was down around 250 kW.... even though the limit has always been there.
     
  16. Zextraterrestrial

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    I think the temperature limiting is a bit greater than it used to be for cold temps. Even cold soaked at 50F I don't seem to get full accel on my P85 and I see a limit line showing up.
     
  17. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    If Tesla is changing the way its software is thermally managing the batteries, does that mean that the old way was causing our batteries to degrade faster?
     
  18. Mike K

    Mike K Member

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    #18 Mike K, Jan 2, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2016
    Just got a call this morning from the Burbank service center. They asked me to take a picture of the dash when it happens. I did one better and shot them a video. At highway speeds a stab of the throttle results in the dashed line every time. So I just got off the phone with them and to my surprise they didn't know. They took two cars out to try to replicate the problem and couldn't. Two different techs there apparently were at a loss. They initially thought I was referring to the yellow triangle that you get if the battery is too cold. So they pushed it up to Fremont and Fremont responded by basically telling them to tell me "you can't do that".

    You can't stab the throttle on the expressway or the car will limit power to extend battery life. You can gently ease into the throttle but stabbing it around 90mph will result in this happening. I have several problems with this which I shared with the Service Advisor:

    1. I had a P85 rental in cold Chicago weather that I beat the snot out of without any limitations at all. I also had another S85 I just sold that never exhibited this problem.

    2. My problem is independent of state of charge, temperature, etc. It doesn't matter the circumstances. 90% of the time it limits power.

    3. The problem is not documented here or anywhere else. There's not a bunch of posts here from people with this problem and the few that do exist are clearly in regards to people hitting temperature limitations which isn't an issue with me.

    4. How many customers would be in an outrage if they couldn't get full power out of their car at expressway speeds? It seems highly unlikely that they would sell a car with such a limitation without some sort of outcry from customers.

    5. P85s, P85D/ P90Ds are commanding a lot more current than my standard S85 and don't appear to have issues. There's no reason my car should experience this issue every time.

    But really, my big issue is that a) it happens every time and b) it hasn't happened on any other S I've driven and c) it didn't happen on either of the cars the techs drove. So given that, I have a hard time swallowing them telling me it's normal.

    And the service advisor more or less agreed. He conceded that this isn't something he's really run into before and that he'll bring it up with the techs again. On a side note, who's looking at my car's logs? From my point of view it seems like it would be quite easy to pull the car's logs and extrapolate from those logs exactly why this is happening. This is the third different answer I've received from them about this problem, two of which I've received after they apparently reviewed logs, yet they respond as if they're just guessing based on what I'm telling them.

    This is a high state of charge though. This morning I started at 90% (228 rated) and drove just 4 miles and 15 minutes before hopping on the expressway. On a car that we're told not to charge fully on a regular basis, it wouldn't make much sense for them to advertise power levels that are only achievable at a charge level they implicitly tell you to avoid unless you're going on a trip.

    What my spidey sense is telling me is that there is maybe some sort of correlation between the A series packs and the new software that perhaps is triggering this. All of the other cars I drove had newer batteries and as this is a low VIN car, it's rocking an A series pack.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here's the video I sent the service center.

     
  19. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    Keep in mind that 320 kW is ~428 HP. The S85 is advertised with 373 HP peak at the battery, or ~280kW.

    So, I'm reasonably certain what you're seeing is just the software showing the yellow line with less of a margin triggering its display than it used to, like I mentioned at the end of my previous post, and that the car's behavior is completely normal.

    But, keep us apprised of what you come up with... I'm pretty sure the end result will be that everything is normal.
     
  20. Ben W

    Ben W P85 #61, Roadster #108

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    Stepping through the video, it looks like the dashed line first appears when you reach 66mph, so it’s not as if you’re traveling unreasonably fast. I have a 2012 P85 with the A pack, and I’ve never seen this behavior before. Really odd. I would keep on them about it; it’s a problem they should certainly diagnose and fix.
     

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