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Yet another thread about locals charging at Superchargers
- Thread starter SoCal Jimmy
- Start date
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Amazing, 16 stalls now and they still fill it up.
It's crap like this that gets me rip-roaring pissed off when I have to travel to OC on business. Sit and wait to charge while some A-hole with an 80,000 car is too cheap to charge at home . . .
Graffi
Member
I agree fully. What I do not think they include in their cost calculation is the value of their time. How much time do they spend driving out of their way to charge, then wait for the SC to be available then the charging time plus the drive home. All that time spent to save $3.00 in electricity. It is just not worth it to me. I only use the SC when traveling outside of our local driving area.
I know we have all witnessed some bad behavior by locals abusing (not using) superchargers. At the same time, we have all known exactly how overly busy this region has been. We cannot just assume that all the current congestion is absolutely due to locals charging. While there are those abusers out there, most people who are intelligent enough, to be successful enough to afford a Tesla, are the same people who would easily understand that charging at an SC instead of home does not make sense.
I have been saying all along that this expansion will do little to relieve the congestion in this area. I also doubt that San Clemente or Carlsbad additions will help much either.
brucet999
Active Member
The centuries-old expression "penny wise and pound foolish" testifies to the enduring nature of counter-productive behavior in order to get "something free". I think many of those locals shop at Costco or Petsmart or work over wifi at Starbucks while their cars are charging, so for them it is not time wasted.
I have charged there on occasion while Costco shopping, and once I saw a man in a Toyota, parked among the waiting Teslas with engine idling for the comfort of AC. Odd, I thought, but all became clear when a white MX moved into a newly vacated station. The driver plugged in, walked to the Toyota, got in with (presumably) her husband and they drove away. This pair of misers wasted the drive time for both of them in two trips to and from the SC, several minutes waiting for a stall, as well as the gasoline burned getting there and back and idling with AC on while waiting; all for maybe $6 worth of electricity.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
Once again, the distinction WILL be made for those who fail to do so:
Non-garaged locals are and have always been perfectly welcome, per Tesla since DAY ONE to use SCs unless and until they get charging at home or at the office.
Garaged locals - A fundamental truism is that people are more lazy than they are cheap. Waking up with a full charge is as easy as it gets. Clearly, the majority of garaged locals do exactly this.
That leaves livery and garaged locals with poor manners. I’ve spoken with livery who tell me they’ll use SCs between LAX and the OC 3-4x/day - and they’ve done this for years. As well, we’ve all seen Tesloop vehicles at SCs.
Poor manners are poor manners. I’ve seen the ICE shuffle from locals - but here’s the thing - you DON’T KNOW if they’re garaged or not.
Most of the bellyaching is just more of the same exclusionist rhetoric that is so much a part of faux populism these days. I’m not saying that everyone who espouses this dreck is completely ignorant - but details matter.
The biggest dangers to SC utilization (at the 3% of sites that are actually busy) remain:
1. ICEing by our own. Leave the stall when the charge is done. Crank up those idle fees - >60 min lifetime = $1/min and a credit card required to be on file at MyTesla, and >360 min = $5/min.
2. A lack of knowledge concerning pairing.
3. Livery.
4. Poorly-performing pedestals and towers at various SC sites. Want to bottleneck a busy route during a holiday weekend? Have 1/3 of the pedestals charging at 40kW. And surprise - you don’t know which ones those are (a feature request has been submitted to add value to the SC Nav info (instead of just red bars, use red/yellow/green/grey bars for relative pedestal health) so that drivers can plan ahead/make adjustments when possible.
It’s worth keeping in mind that 6-7 of the top 10 busiest SCs ON THE PLANET are in California. The other 3 are in China with a fairly regular appearance from Amsterdam (see livery). The rest of the network is largely fine.
Happily, Tesla is aware of all of this and has the opportunity to optimize their deployments, urban and otherwise, to stay ahead of the curve.
Further, there are 12,500 L2 & L3 chargers coming courtesy of the 2 largest utilities in California, the $450 EV incentive for SoCal Edison customers, and however many chargers and maintenance the VW (Dieselgate) $800M (which was $1.2B - hmmm) for CA alone will buy.
Solve California and we solve the continent.
Non-garaged locals are and have always been perfectly welcome, per Tesla since DAY ONE to use SCs unless and until they get charging at home or at the office.
Garaged locals - A fundamental truism is that people are more lazy than they are cheap. Waking up with a full charge is as easy as it gets. Clearly, the majority of garaged locals do exactly this.
That leaves livery and garaged locals with poor manners. I’ve spoken with livery who tell me they’ll use SCs between LAX and the OC 3-4x/day - and they’ve done this for years. As well, we’ve all seen Tesloop vehicles at SCs.
Poor manners are poor manners. I’ve seen the ICE shuffle from locals - but here’s the thing - you DON’T KNOW if they’re garaged or not.
Most of the bellyaching is just more of the same exclusionist rhetoric that is so much a part of faux populism these days. I’m not saying that everyone who espouses this dreck is completely ignorant - but details matter.
The biggest dangers to SC utilization (at the 3% of sites that are actually busy) remain:
1. ICEing by our own. Leave the stall when the charge is done. Crank up those idle fees - >60 min lifetime = $1/min and a credit card required to be on file at MyTesla, and >360 min = $5/min.
2. A lack of knowledge concerning pairing.
3. Livery.
4. Poorly-performing pedestals and towers at various SC sites. Want to bottleneck a busy route during a holiday weekend? Have 1/3 of the pedestals charging at 40kW. And surprise - you don’t know which ones those are (a feature request has been submitted to add value to the SC Nav info (instead of just red bars, use red/yellow/green/grey bars for relative pedestal health) so that drivers can plan ahead/make adjustments when possible.
It’s worth keeping in mind that 6-7 of the top 10 busiest SCs ON THE PLANET are in California. The other 3 are in China with a fairly regular appearance from Amsterdam (see livery). The rest of the network is largely fine.
Happily, Tesla is aware of all of this and has the opportunity to optimize their deployments, urban and otherwise, to stay ahead of the curve.
Further, there are 12,500 L2 & L3 chargers coming courtesy of the 2 largest utilities in California, the $450 EV incentive for SoCal Edison customers, and however many chargers and maintenance the VW (Dieselgate) $800M (which was $1.2B - hmmm) for CA alone will buy.
Solve California and we solve the continent.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
This bit of logic doesn't occur to them. My wife is a self-described "cheap asian" and I'm constantly having to remind her of the value of her time (clipping coupons and driving 10 min out of the way to save $0.50, etc.).
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Oh, I don't highly doubt it. I have to frequent this supercharger enough to have a pretty good idea these are locals with houses (their friends/spouses pick up and drop them off in high-end cars, etc.). This particular geographic area is pretty heavy on the houses side and not condos/apartments.
These are just people looking to save a buck, with no respect for anyone else's time.
I hope they get blistered badly by supercharger idle fees.
roblab
Active Member
So the idea is that they are charging because they have no outlet and no charger available closer. Or no FREE charger closer, as there are often L2s around but they take longer and cost more than a tank of gas.
When they bought, they made a decision. They knew they had no charging available, but someone told them, "But you have a supercharger only a few miles away, and they're free!" I put forth the idea that the word "free" echoed in their brains. Tesla decided that just because you can't charge is no need to keep from buying this car, and they push the free charging in order to make an extra $20K profit. Tesla doesn't care about the negative feelings generated because the chargers are filled. They've made a bundle. No wonder they can afford to add more chargers!
Some "locals" could spend some of their money putting in an outlet -- and some can't, I know. But I think Tesla is at fault for pushing the idea that charging will not be a problem. But it is. I'm not sure who is to blame, but it starts with the decision to buy this car, no matter who gets put out. And they're not going to pay to have an outlet installed at their home if there's free charging ten minutes away.
That said, if those close neighbors of those free chargers would charge off peak hours (like 10PM to 5AM), no one would care.
Unfortunately, I know two different Tesla owners that use Superchargers just to be cheap. These are friend-of-friend acquaintances, so I've actually talked to them, know their situations, etc. Both live in houses, with garages, and plugs that they very occasionally use.
I've tried to talk to them about the value of their time, but they have endless excuses: My calculations don't apply to them because I'm on a TOU rate to charge cheap at night and they're not. My calculations don't apply because I didn't account for the car's usage "pushing them into the next tier" and making all their electricity more expensive (I know that isn't how tiered rates work). Or they'll insist on calculating the lifetime savings from supercharging, seeing a big number, and not wanting to give up "that huge savings for a few minutes when I'm not busy anyway."
They don't care about inconveniencing travelers, because it's first-come-first-served, and they "paid for it as part of the car, and have the same right as anyone else."
The saddest part is to watch one girl always taking her boyfriend's gas car because she hasn't gotten around to charging her Tesla. Nothing like paying $0.15 per mile for gas because you're too cheap to pay $0.08 per mile for electricity. Penny wise and pound foolish is exactly right.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
Local *garaged* users, maybe, and even that’s difficult in an area such as SoCal.
It’s completely antithetical to Tesla’s mission, as well, since there are a boatload of non-garaged future customers. 70% of homes in the US do have garages, tho.
Lastly, *all* Model 3 users will pay and pay dearly at the SCs, local or not. At $0.20/kW in CA, and with efficiency losses that can approach 50% for short, urban commutes over the course of a week, all of a sudden their $15 or so only gets them 140 miles.
Meanwhile, Leaf owners will get free charging for 2 years. Now, you know and I know that Chademos are a 40% poor substitute for an SC, but the optics will still be equally poor.
Happily, CA is about to get deluged with 12,500 L2 and L3 chargers from 2 utilities and at some point the Dieselgate money will materialize in the form of chargers and maintenance thereof. Just the Dieselgate money alone (now $800M) would build thousands of SC sites; not a dime of it will go toward SCs, but one figures they’ll build out a bazillion L2s and L3s as well.
What would be particularly nice along with some enhanced political will would be for that Dieselgate money to jumpstart MDU (apt/condo) retrofits as well. There’s no single ubiquitous solution, but every bit will help.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
Yum. Popcorn.
We could probably grab one of the old threads on the topic and read it all the way through to see how it ends. Answer - it doesn’t
Free brings out the worst in all kinds of people. Heck, look at the lines at the Costco gas pumps to save $0.05 per gallon over the station across the street with no line ...
We could probably grab one of the old threads on the topic and read it all the way through to see how it ends. Answer - it doesn’t
Free brings out the worst in all kinds of people. Heck, look at the lines at the Costco gas pumps to save $0.05 per gallon over the station across the street with no line ...
jeffro01
Active Member
People are entitled and selfish and this stretches across all income brackets, cultures, countries, lives... Since there isn't anything you can do about that you have to make a choice. Tesla has clearly made a choice and whether I agree with it or not is completely irrelevant. I have consistently said if you can't/won't charge at home, don't buy the car. I absolutely still feel that way and don't see myself changing my perspective on that anytime soon...
The reality is, there isn't anything Tesla can do about this. The only real option I could come up with is you only get X amount of kWh per year at SCs within X distance from your house after which it's $.50/kWh or some astronomical rate. This way if you're caught coming home from a long trip you aren't penalized in any way but it would severely discourage locals from abusing the system. However, Tesla isn't going to do that for a number of reasons. Their solution will continue to be build more SCs which doesn't solve the problem, only makes it worse actually, and they aren't building them fast enough...
Jeff
The reality is, there isn't anything Tesla can do about this. The only real option I could come up with is you only get X amount of kWh per year at SCs within X distance from your house after which it's $.50/kWh or some astronomical rate. This way if you're caught coming home from a long trip you aren't penalized in any way but it would severely discourage locals from abusing the system. However, Tesla isn't going to do that for a number of reasons. Their solution will continue to be build more SCs which doesn't solve the problem, only makes it worse actually, and they aren't building them fast enough...
Jeff
I admit to using my local supercharger twice to charge. Both times it was because I forgot to charge the night before and I needed to quickly add juice to make it through the day. Black line rules never adequately cover all situations and create injustices.
I think local supercharging is clearly an issue but I think everyone's "solutions" won't actually help. Firstly, everyone paid for this convenience. So its not like Tesla can say "unlimited supercharging for life" and then create geographic restrictions (while creating an urban charger network which is encouraging people to approach supercharging as a daily charger). Secondly, I think what everyone actually has a problem with is people using Superchargers as their primary charging source. So Tesla needs to figure out the frequency of local charging, the total energy consumed, and determine if that owner is impinging on others' use of a common resource.
The bottom line is that people just need to be considerate. I just charged, both times, for 10-20minutes (and the first time no one else was there and the second time someone pulled up as I was thinking about leaving so I left).
It is what it is.
I think local supercharging is clearly an issue but I think everyone's "solutions" won't actually help. Firstly, everyone paid for this convenience. So its not like Tesla can say "unlimited supercharging for life" and then create geographic restrictions (while creating an urban charger network which is encouraging people to approach supercharging as a daily charger). Secondly, I think what everyone actually has a problem with is people using Superchargers as their primary charging source. So Tesla needs to figure out the frequency of local charging, the total energy consumed, and determine if that owner is impinging on others' use of a common resource.
The bottom line is that people just need to be considerate. I just charged, both times, for 10-20minutes (and the first time no one else was there and the second time someone pulled up as I was thinking about leaving so I left).
It is what it is.
I actually like this idea. I've considered SC after a long trip at my local charger but usually I'm so god damn tired that I love pulling into my garage and plugging in and going to sleep but I have had other kinds of emergencies (see above) and so I like the flexibility and the limits of this proposal.
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