You gotta be kidding me. Electricians won't add a Tesla wall connector on the backup side of ESS

[Akikiki]

A bump from $.12 to $.17 is bad. But I surely wish we had it that bad. Our rate runs $0.30-0.32 And that's on the "cheap" island, Oahu. Some islands here pay more. I like using gasoline, milk and bread as a yardstick to gauge cost of livings. Our gas these days is running about $3.40 to $3.60. Gallon of milk is about $4.92 to $5.40. Bread on sale is $3.99 a loaf.

 

[holeydonut]

A bump from $.12 to $.17 is bad. But I surely wish we had it that bad. Our rate runs $0.30-0.32 And that's on the "cheap" island, Oahu. Some islands here pay more. I like using gasoline, milk and bread as a yardstick to gauge cost of livings. Our gas these days is running about $3.40 to $3.60. Gallon of milk is about $4.92 to $5.40. Bread on sale is $3.99 a loaf.

Lol yeah Hawaii has the worst energy prices, but you also have a ton of sun. I don't know why all the islands aren't covered by solar with batteries already haha.

I think we'd all prefer to be in Hawaii right now...

 

[Electrph]

Lol yeah Hawaii has the worst energy prices, but you also have a ton of sun. I don't know why all the islands aren't covered by solar with batteries already haha.

I think we'd all prefer to be in Hawaii right now...

at least i feel Hawaii has legit excuse for sticking it to residents (actual island) what is pg&e's excuse ??
plus you live in an awesome place .. well most of it

 

[Akikiki]

We (we being the utility and power suppliers of solar) are working on more solar. We (guess who that is) are building many farms. We (the residents) have been putting solar on houses since 2008 when the state started offering tax credits too. We too had/have NEM. And the utility stepped up in 2016 - hmmm I guess about 8 years after it started, and killed new NEM. They discovered it was big-time costing them revenue. The utility declared the grid was saturated and they could not risk the different things that could happen if they allowed more. (A list to complicated, too far fetched, too might happen, but no real experience or guarantee bad would happen. But they shut it down.)

Our state has goals of 0 fossil fuels usage. I don't remember when. But ahead of the timeline, the utility just announced 34% of power is generated by renewables. Of course they are taking 100% credit for the residential solar that they did nothing to pay for and wanted to stop in the first place. But our homes' solar is counted in their 34%.

 

[Akikiki]

at least i feel Hawaii has legit excuse for sticking it to residents (actual island) what is pg&e's excuse ??
plus you live in an awesome place .. well most of it

When you say "Hawaii" has legit excuse, who is Hawaii in this instance? The state, the utility, the people? And what is the legit excuse too? Its it just your "feeling"? But "feelings" aside, what are your thinking process that leads you to this, please?

 

[Electrph]

When you say "Hawaii" has legit excuse, who is Hawaii in this instance? The state, the utility, the people? And what is the legit excuse too? Its it just your "feeling"? But "feelings" aside, what are your thinking process that leads you to this, please?

was not a deep thought process . just quick observation .on geography .actually i should have put quotes on "legit" .. likely Hawaii may not have legitamate rationale for fees / etc

 

[jjrandorin]

So, how is a thread on electricians not being willing to install extra equipment into a backup sub panel also turning into a discussion on electricity rates in various states?

 

[holeydonut]

So, how is a thread on electricians not being willing to install extra equipment into a backup sub panel also turning into a discussion on electricity rates in various states?

Because some people don't understand what's the big deal if the wall charger is on the backup side or non-backup side. I want to be able to charge my car from both PV and ESS sources, and possibly benefit down the road when V2G is enabled.

I guess if someone could add some CTs to the MSP at least the batteries could see the EV charger when the utility was online. But that's still a change that no electrician is willing to undertake.

There's a lot of risk exposure to PG&E messing with EV TOU rates in the coming years since they want their "fair share" of profits from what they perceive to be wealthy moneybags EV + Solar customers.

 

[Akikiki]

jj, I guess its following the norm. Seems like every thread takes another path once in a while and someone reminds us to get back on track. thanks. It would be the exception for one thread not to wander a little, eh?

 

[jjrandorin]

Lol.. yeah I did my share of derailing in this thread as well. My question was at least partially rhetorical, but also because I dont want to end up needing to split posts off from this thread and move them somewhere else.

There is a pretty intense desire to "discuss" energy plan differences, specifically between CA and TX, likely driven by quite a few things, like the overall differences in how these two states tend to vote, the differences in their energy providers etc, and the fact that for the past couple of years, people have been piling on CA for grid instability, now it happened somewhere else, so they get to talk about that.

With all that being said, every thread doesnt need to devolve into that specific discussion, so I was sort of poking to hopefully prevent a bunch of work on me splitting off posts etc.

 

[holeydonut]

Lol, I feel like most threads here pivot into discussing the motive for why somebody wants to achieve the thing being asked/discussed. And the motive typically points back to a desire to gain some form of energy independence from the utility/monopoly rule-set.

Hopefully we'll see more tech emerging in the coming years that enable homeowners to improve their energy planning, usage, and management. This way when the grid stumbles and rates skyrocket... the homeowner is less exposed.

Aside from learning how full of red tape this industry is, one thing I did learn in this whole process of going green is how much energy I was wasting since I simply wasn't looking. I believe every thread posted in this TMC subforum provides readers a smidge of knowledge to make smarter energy choices. But the motive to save energy is usually because the utilities charge so much lol and not really something to save the planet.

 

[Electrph]

So, how is a thread on electricians not being willing to install extra equipment into a backup sub panel also turning into a discussion on electricity rates in various states?

OP started thread partially venting so figured the venting expanded .. it is cathartic

 

[holeydonut]

OP started thread partially venting so figured the venting expanded .. it is cathartic

It wasn't partial. The original title of the thread was literally "you gotta be kidding me" with no other context. The mods added the clarity to try and have the thread generate some value other than just me ranting.

I still can't believe the county requires me to type my workers compensation insurance details and check 6 boxes attesting that no licensed personnel will touch the work on the owner/builder permit. Sucks.

 

[holeydonut]

I learned something interesting... just for the hell of it, I turned on everything (within reason) in my house just to see what would happen. Every light switch, bathroom fan, two air conditioners, all electric stove/oven. The only thing I didn't run was the garbage disposal since I didn't want it to burn it out. I had a space heater going, air fryer, treadmill and hair dryer going.

I don't know if the NEC is ultra-conservative or if all these energy efficient upgrades actually bore fruit. But I basically topped off at 18 kW of continuous demand (75 amps). The electric kitchen stuff draw a lot of power to heat up; but once they get to operating temps, their draw takes a nosedive.

So in one hand I have PG&E beating me up over a 200A main service panel. But then on the other hand I can get my loads up above what 3 Powerwalls can pound out.

I just think it's funny my outdoor condensing unit uses less continuous energy than my wife's space heater... I'm not sure how that is possible.

PS. gas water heater and gas furnaces. No radiant heating floor or EV charger.

 

[Vines]

I learned something interesting... just for the hell of it, I turned on everything (within reason) in my house just to see what would happen. Every light switch, bathroom fan, two air conditioners, all electric stove/oven. The only thing I didn't run was the garbage disposal since I didn't want it to burn it out. I had a space heater going, air fryer, treadmill and hair dryer going.

I don't know if the NEC is ultra-conservative or if all these energy efficient upgrades actually bore fruit. But I basically topped off at 18 kW of continuous demand (75 amps). The electric kitchen stuff draw a lot of power to heat up; but once they get to operating temps, their draw takes a nosedive.

So in one hand I have PG&E beating me up over a 200A main service panel. But then on the other hand I can get my loads up above what 3 Powerwalls can pound out.

I just think it's funny my outdoor condensing unit uses less continuous energy than my wife's space heater... I'm not sure how that is possible.

PS. gas water heater and gas furnaces. No radiant heating floor or EV charger.

The NEC load calculations are never going to be right on, but still be careful.

I burned my neutral wire of the service drop doing a similar thing. Many 120V appliances were seeing 240V, and fried.

 

[wwhitney]

I don't know if the NEC is ultra-conservative

80% this.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[BGbreeder]

The NEC load calculations are never going to be right on, but still be careful.

I burned my neutral wire of the service drop doing a similar thing. Many 120V appliances were seeing 240V, and fried.

I'm having trouble visualizing this. How did the neutral happen to burn up? Bad connector? How did that result in 120 becoming 240? I.e. what happened to your ground neutral connection?

Just curious...

All the best,

BG

 

[wwhitney]

A few comments:

- Vines likely had a marginal neutral to begin with, possibly already with some voltage imbalance. Then during the stress test, the imbalance of the loads on the two legs must have been greater than previously seen, causing enough voltage imbalance to damage equipment.

- Connection to earth doesn't matter for low voltage (i.e. < 1000V) questions like this.

- With an intact neutral, 120V L-N loads on opposite legs work as expected (and if there's any current imbalance between the draw on the two legs, the neutral will carry that current.) When the neutral is compromised, then you end up with a series circuit, supplied with 240V, with the parallel 120V loads on one leg in series with the parallel 120V loads on the other leg (and the current through the two series loads has to be equal, there is no neutral to carry the unbalanced current). So the voltage drop across the two series loads will divide in proportion to their impedances. If they happen to be equal, you won't notice the missing neutral. But if one leg has more impedance (which if the individual loads were all the same would mean fewer of them are turned on, since the individual loads are in parallel), it will see more voltage drop, often sufficiently in excess of 120V to damage equipment.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[holeydonut]

Thanks @wwhitney!

Since it's possible some people on TMC will need to run these "stress tests" to get their SGIP rebate... is there a way to see the imbalance between the two legs or test the neutral without waiting for appliances to get rekt?

I can see why Tesla got out of the business of helping people get the large-scale SGIP rebate. One of the requirements is to run the home at maximum; which seems like a way to cause unexpected damage if the home isn't ready to be stressed.

 

[h2ofun]

Thanks @wwhitney!

Since it's possible some people on TMC will need to run these "stress tests" to get their SGIP rebate... is there a way to see the imbalance between the two legs or test the neutral without waiting for appliances to get rekt?

I can see why Tesla got out of the business of helping people get the large-scale SGIP rebate. One of the requirements is to run the home at maximum; which seems like a way to cause unexpected damage if the home isn't ready to be stressed.

Sure glad I did not know this when I lite my house up. It could have been real. I guess I passed the stress test.

From what I have been told, my installed company is not putting in anymore SGIP stuff. The money is gone, and probably will never come back. Even for large scale they are not wasting their energy anymore