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"You people"? Really?

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To me, once the member is banned, it's between the member and the site administration. The banned member has no right to reply to public comment on the site, so the site shouldn't be making public comments about them.
Good idea except once a person is banned, there appears to be no way to get in touch with/a response from “management”. And yes, people are banned with no notice, no mention of anything, just blam.
Can’t read any past this post to which I am replying, just too much...too much.
Before I am banned, let me say - I lurked on this forum for years, on and off, and honestly had the idea you have to be a Tesla owner to join. So I didn’t. I couldn’t afford a Model S so waited and waited and put down my deposit on a Model 3 the second I was allowed. When that turned out to be a fiasco, I joined in order to communicate with people selling their cars. I attempted to participate in non-sales threads, without much luck. Mostly It seemed my input was not desired. That is a long winded way of saying that people can be “active forum members” without 12,000 posts.
I guide you to islandchick. I ask, seriously and honestly what “egregious behavior” can you find? Hint: there was never a deleted post.
I want to thank many of you who have, through your discussions on this forum, helped me understand more the reality of owning a Tesla: something I have been looking forward to for a decade, and which I probably will never accomplish.
Just because someone appears at first blush to be inferior, does not mean they are, and even when they are, we are all human beings and it would be to everyone’s better for us all to remember that.
 
Good idea except once a person is banned, there appears to be no way to get in touch with/a response from “management”. And yes, people are banned with no notice, no mention of anything, just blam.
Can’t read any past this post to which I am replying, just too much...too much.
Before I am banned, let me say - I lurked on this forum for years, on and off, and honestly had the idea you have to be a Tesla owner to join. So I didn’t. I couldn’t afford a Model S so waited and waited and put down my deposit on a Model 3 the second I was allowed. When that turned out to be a fiasco, I joined in order to communicate with people selling their cars. I attempted to participate in non-sales threads, without much luck. Mostly It seemed my input was not desired. That is a long winded way of saying that people can be “active forum members” without 12,000 posts.
I guide you to islandchick. I ask, seriously and honestly what “egregious behavior” can you find? Hint: there was never a deleted post.
I want to thank many of you who have, through your discussions on this forum, helped me understand more the reality of owning a Tesla: something I have been looking forward to for a decade, and which I probably will never accomplish.
Just because someone appears at first blush to be inferior, does not mean they are, and even when they are, we are all human beings and it would be to everyone’s better for us all to remember that.
Just buy one. It's worth the craziness.
 
No, they are far worse.

And if there are heavy handed actions here, they have nothing to do with Tesla the company, or the mission.

TSLAQ, if you are here, a proper f you to you.

Niedermeyer and the TSLAQ crowd reading this: you’re just as bad.

f neidermeyer
(the auto guy, and the one from animal house)...both a bag of tools!!!
 
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Not to beat too much of a dead horse, but the censorship here is heavy-handed, and unequally applied.

I like to discuss politics, and will push others on their views, well, because that is how our society is supposed to work. I've been banned repeatedly from a political thread on TMC, but have noted very clearly that those on the opposite political side can say with impunity what they want. Admittedly, some of my posts, especially earlier ones, we very fiery. But even being as polite as possible, the most recent 2 bans have been handed out for nothing that I can discern except having a dissenting opinion. To make matters worse, on every single occasion, no moderator has had the stones to actually PM me to tell my why I am getting suspended from the forums. I just login, and note that I cannot post.



If the moderators are bored, they should pay more attention to the FS section. The rampant thread crapping by people there on how people price their cars has really turned of a lot of people from listing their cars on TMC.
 
I don't think this is a general behavior here. I don't want to blindly jump in their defense but I can tell you about my case.

I used to be very vocal on the sales threads where owners were grossly overpricing their cars but I can see how this approach is not the best one. Let's just say as long as it's clear for everyone that their pricing is very wrong, I'm happy. This can be achieved in nicer ways too.

I wasn't banned at any time but a mod did reach out to me via PM and explained very clearly and in a very friendly manner (completely not like some aggressive wannabe mall cops around here).


So yeah, all good here and while I will still keep an eye on the sales section, I'll try a more friendly approach when a seller needs/asks for guidance.
 
No, it is not.

You are welcome to post ANY PMs that any moderator has sent to me here publicly related to that "Market Politics" thread. The last time you and I exchanged PMs was Sept 30, 2018, and had nothing at all to do with the thread in question.
Your statement read that you have never been given a reason for any of your bans. You have, but perhaps not for all of them. If you were talking about one specific subset of bans, that’s a different story.

Additionally, notifications are sometimes given though the alert system, not PM.
 
Your statement read that you have never been given a reason for any of your bans. You have, but perhaps not for all of them. If you were talking about one specific subset of bans, that’s a different story.

Additionally, notifications are sometimes given though the alert system, not PM.

Context, that statement should be taken in the context of my more wordy post above, which was completely contextual to the politics thread.

I've received one "alert", ever. Additionally, as people here point out those are really poor by design, because they give you no one to reply to.

I stand by my statement earlier - basically because my view is on the right of the political spectrum, I'm placed under a microscope for wording, etc. with left-leaning moderators to find an excuse to drop the ban hammer. If the same standards (using CAPS, being forceful with ones arguments, personal "attacks", etc.) were applied to various members of the opposite political view, I would not be airing this grievance publicly. I would be like "well, they are harsh, but they are fair across the board". The moderators here are well-known for this practice (hence the complaints of this practice in this thread). There is a real fairness problem here.
 
Context, that statement should be taken in the context of my more wordy post above, which was completely contextual to the politics thread.

I've received one "alert", ever. Additionally, as people here point out those are really poor by design, because they give you no one to reply to.

I stand by my statement earlier - basically because my view is on the right of the political spectrum, I'm placed under a microscope for wording, etc. with left-leaning moderators to find an excuse to drop the ban hammer. If the same standards (using CAPS, being forceful with ones arguments, personal "attacks", etc.) were applied to various members of the opposite political view, I would not be airing this grievance publicly. I would be like "well, they are harsh, but they are fair across the board". The moderators here are well-known for this practice (hence the complaints of this practice in this thread). There is a real fairness problem here.
I cannot speak to the Market Politics thread. My sanity requires that I never visit that thread or moderate there or, really, anywhere on the Investor side. The rules over there appear to be enforced somewhat differently from the rules in the rest of the site, merely because of the heightened level of emotion and aggression.

Regarding political discussions outside of that area - I know that I personally try very hard not to let bias influence what I move away. After the election, I moved many, many more anti-Trump messages into the Politics quarantine than I did pro-Trump ones. What I have found to be the case in my years of moderating here is that the right-leaning members are fewer, and therefore feel the need to be louder and/or more aggressive with their comments, and often have posts moved away for reasons not directly related to content. You've admitted above that you have been "very fiery," which I would say is an extremely kind way to describe some of your offending posts.

An important piece of this is that we react to reports. I don't read much more than a small percentage of posts on this forum - it's downright impossible to keep up with the traffic here and live a normal life. So most of what I do (not speaking for all moderators) is review reports, back in those threads to try to gain context, and make decisions based on the rules of the site. I imagine I've made mistakes before, and probably haven't been evenly handed across the board. Sometimes I've just had a bad day and my tolerance is very low.

If any member sees a political post that they think doesn't belong in a thread, report it. We will see the reports and we will try to enforce things properly. There's a lot of effort that goes into figuring out whether it has derailed the thread, whether it pertains to EVs, whether it quickly resolved itself in thread, etc. The earlier you report, the easier it is for us to cull.
 
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I cannot speak to the Market Politics thread. My sanity requires that I never visit that thread or moderate there or, really, anywhere on the Investor side. The rules over there appear to be enforced somewhat differently from the rules in the rest of the site, merely because of the heightened level of emotion and aggression.

Regarding political discussions outside of that area - I know that I personally try very hard not to let bias influence what I move away. After the election, I moved many, many more anti-Trump messages into the Politics quarantine than I did pro-Trump ones. What I have found to be the case in my years of moderating here is that the right-leaning members are fewer, and therefore feel the need to be louder and/or more aggressive with their comments, and often have posts moved away for reasons not directly related to content. You've admitted above that you have been "very fiery," which I would say is an extremely kind way to describe some of your offending posts.

An important piece of this is that we react to reports. I don't read much more than a small percentage of posts on this forum - it's downright impossible to keep up with the traffic here and live a normal life. So most of what I do (not speaking for all moderators) is review reports, back in those threads to try to gain context, and make decisions based on the rules of the site. I imagine I've made mistakes before, and probably haven't been evenly handed across the board. Sometimes I've just had a bad day and my tolerance is very low.

If any member sees a political post that they think doesn't belong in a thread, report it. We will see the reports and we will try to enforce things properly. There's a lot of effort that goes into figuring out whether it has derailed the thread, whether it pertains to EVs, whether it quickly resolved itself in thread, etc. The earlier you report, the easier it is for us to cull.

Thank you for the well-thought reply, and the insight into the decision making.

I'll probably just try to keep my posts down in the Market Politics thread, since it appears to be more of a left-leaning echo chamber than a please where the members actually want entertain dissenting opinions and have a true discourse.
 
I think an explanation should be given for a ban. However I'd expect people who have been repeatedly banned for previous "very fiery" posts might get less tolerance from mods.
I agree about explanation for bans. I think there is a misunderstanding about the alerting system for moderator actions, as I see some private (to moderators) notes on reports that appear to be directed at the individual receiving the action. I will do my best to remind the moderation staff that we should be giving notifications for warnings via PM. But there are cases where the courtesy of a notification isn't warranted - for instance, someone who is a repeat offender, who comes off a ban and continues precisely what they did beforehand.

But notifications and reasoning are always a good idea.

Note that in some infrequent cases, if I know the individual is likely to lash back out, I will lock my PM notification. They will receive the notification, but cannot respond. This may seem unfair, but there are times when the last thing I want is to have someone invade my evening with personal attacks.
 
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Your statement read that you have never been given a reason for any of your bans. You have, but perhaps not for all of them. If you were talking about one specific subset of bans, that’s a different story.

Additionally, notifications are sometimes given though the alert system, not PM.
I got banned once, not long ago. No warning, no notice, no complaints. Absolutely nothing except I found myself banned. So far as I can tell it was a mistake, an accident. I tried sending e-mail asking what was going on to the site owners / moderators, or whatever you get if you use the address on the home page. No response.

The ban lasted a month, and near as I can tell was just a typo on somebody's part. Probably some moderator had a bad day and was sloppy. But it's ridiculous not to have a mechanism to correct errors. And truly obnoxious not to even notify people as to what's happened and why.
 
I got banned once, not long ago. No warning, no notice, no complaints. Absolutely nothing except I found myself banned. So far as I can tell it was a mistake, an accident. I tried sending e-mail asking what was going on to the site owners / moderators, or whatever you get if you use the address on the home page. No response.

The ban lasted a month, and near as I can tell was just a typo on somebody's part. Probably some moderator had a bad day and was sloppy. But it's ridiculous not to have a mechanism to correct errors. And truly obnoxious not to even notify people as to what's happened and why.
PM sent.
 
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The mods really are too heavy-handed sometimes.

I'm a former super moderator for several forums. I stopped moderating because these were often activity or vehicle-based, and my interests changed over the years. For the last forum where I was a super mod, I handed over the reins to moderators I vetted personally. Usually, my role involved behind-the-scenes maintenance; post organization, fixing sloppy thread titles (for better searches), guiding new users where to post if they were in the wrong section, merging threads, etc. Rarely did I have to directly moderate anyone and bans were even rarer.

My contribution is this; heavy-handed moderation will always ruin forums and run off good contributing members. Being unpaid is no excuse for over-moderating or micro-managing a forum to the deficit of the forum and its users. Also, bad moderation begets bad users, and this can deeply infect forums with the scourge of political infighting, biases, special privilege, free speech for some, etc. Like any company, bad company culture comes from the top.

Are we not all adults here? My policy as a former super mod has always been to allow adults to work it out, and they generally will find a way. Only in rare cases would I consider user-moderation to be necessary, but usually that's also when a user is close to a ban (making physical threats and other clearly disruptive behavior). I would never censor content unless it's obviously an egregious abuse (porn, spam, etc.). As a free-speech absolutist in real life (but for speech which directly causes harm such as yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater)—I understand that the speech we protect in places where free speech exists is not 'nice' speech, but the speech which requires protection from a reason—because people may not like it. There is little pressing need to 'protect' inoffensive or uncontroversial speech.

Adults will invariably disagree, argue, dislike another's tone, etc., but shutting down a thread is never a way to fix this. All it does is drive the conflict underground with no resolution, where the involved parties will continue to snipe at each other. Adults in real life argue, and we don't see third parties coming in to mute them. People just disagree sometimes and usually these things work themselves out. I've worked out issues with people who have opposite viewpoints, either by changing my mind, getting them to change their mind, both, or agreeing to disagree and emphasizing the areas where we have parity.

It's natural when humans are in a group to have this dust-up with new people meeting each other in the sizing up-phase—but humans generally dislike sustained conflict and will usually find ways to co-exist once all that posturing is out of the way. This is very natural for humans, and it's no different on forums. We should also note that humans perceive and resolve conflicts differently, and this includes variability between the sexes. Usually all of this is resolved with enough time, whilst recognizing that neurodiversity is the norm and not the exception.

On balance, light or minimal moderation is the best option when dealing with adults expressing thoughts, even if there are occasional disagreements. We are humans at the end of the day and forums are a self-selected group of people with common interests. I'm optimistic that we'll generally try to resolve conflicts wherever possible, but it's a process that has to be given freedom for that resolution to occur.

My .02. ;)
 
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I'm a former super moderator for several forums. I stopped moderating because these were often activity or vehicle-based, and my interests changed over the years. For the last forum where I was a super mod, I handed over the reins to moderators I vetted personally. Usually, my role involved behind-the-scenes maintenance; post organization, fixing sloppy thread titles (for better searches), guiding new users where to post if they were in the wrong section, merging threads, etc. Rarely did I have to directly moderate anyone and bans were even rarer.

My contribution is this; heavy-handed moderation will always ruin forums and run off good contributing members. Being unpaid is no excuse for over-moderating or micro-managing a forum to the deficit of the forum and its users. Also, bad moderation begets bad users, and this can deeply infect forums with the scourge of political infighting, biases, special privilege, free speech for some, etc. Like any company, bad company culture comes from the top.

Are we not all adults here? My policy as a former super mod has always been to allow adults to work it out, and they generally will find a way. Only in rare cases would I consider user-moderation to be necessary, but usually that's also when a user is close to a ban (making physical threats and other clearly disruptive behavior). I would never censor content unless it's obviously an egregious abuse (porn, spam, etc.). As a free-speech absolutist in real life (but for speech which directly causes harm such as yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater)—I understand that the speech we protect in places where free speech exists is not 'nice' speech, but the speech which requires protection from a reason—because people may not like it. There is little pressing need to 'protect' inoffensive or uncontroversial speech.

Adults will invariably disagree, argue, dislike another's tone, etc., but shutting down a thread is never a way to fix this. All it does is drive the conflict underground with no resolution, where the involved parties will continue to snipe at each other. Adults in real life argue, and we don't see third parties coming in to mute them. People just disagree sometimes and usually these things work themselves out. I've worked out issues with people who have opposite viewpoints, either by changing my mind, getting them to change their mind, both, or agreeing to disagree and emphasizing the areas where we have parity.

It's natural when humans are in a group to have this dust-up with new people meeting each other in the sizing up-phase—but humans generally dislike sustained conflict and will usually find ways to co-exist once all that posturing is out of the way. This is very natural for humans, and it's no different on forums. We should also note that humans perceive and resolve conflicts differently, and this includes variability between the sexes. Usually all of this is resolved with enough time, whilst recognizing that neurodiversity is the norm and not the exception.

On balance, light or minimal moderation is the best option when dealing with adults expressing thoughts, even if there are occasional disagreements. We are humans at the end of the day and forums are a self-selected group of people with common interests. I'm optimistic that we'll generally try to resolve conflicts wherever possible, but it's a process that has to be given freedom for that resolution to occur.

My .02. ;)
Nice post. I agree with much of what you said, and in my worthless opinion of myself, I'm pretty light handed when it comes to moderation here. However, I've been here at TMC long enough to know that arguments between strong willed individuals who both must get the last word will entirely ruin a thread. The goal of moderation, as I see it, is to encourage and enable valuable discourse, and to disincentivize pointless infighting. In other words, moderators should endeavor to improve the signal to noise ratio. This being the Internet, there are people who get joy out of ruffling others' feathers for no other reason than to do it. That's why the site has rules, and why moderators are bound to enforce those rules. The TMC rules are listed at the bottom of every page under the link "Terms of Service."

One of the things I like about the way moderation is set up at TMC (done before my tenure as a moderator) is that we infrequently delete posts or lock threads. There are, of course, exceptions. Moving posts away allows members to see what was said, or to copy and paste the valuable things they said and post them back into the thread without the personal attacks. The definition of the word moderator is, after all "a mediator or arbiter," so getting between two people who are snipping at each other is precisely the definition of the job. And moving "snippy" posts away quickly nearly always works. I've seen the difference between handling a report within minutes and within days.

Your post insinuates that forums mimic real life conversations. I have always tried to behave here at TMC as if I were meeting with others face to face. However, if you think that people on the Internet act the way that they would in person, I would like you to PM me the forums you moderated so I can spend the rest of my life there. They sound like glorious places.

Tesla is a polarizing company for reasons I don't pretend to fully understand. It has publicly traded stock that has (or at least had) a very high level of short interest. It represents, to some, an environmental statement, which therefore plays into some politically charged ideas, at least in the US. There are people who think it's a Ponzi scheme, and others who are passionate about the company to the point of near intimacy. So I am going to go out on a limb and say that, while it isn't alone in this space, it brings up topics that have the tendency to exacerbate the already strong opinions and outrage sowed in online environments.

My experience is that every environment has its own set of rules that work. I've worked at and run different companies. There is no boilerplate framework that can be applied successfully across all environments, and in many cases, the rules and customs grow organically from the environment in which they're nurtured. I believe that's what is seen here at TMC - a set of rules that have worked, at least to date, in keeping the signal to noise ratio within reasonable boundaries. Surely more work can be done, and I'm always open to criticism of my moderation decisions so that I can improve.