Youxia Ranger X - Chinese knockoff of the Tesla Model S

[stopcrazypp]

Two thoughts on the Chinese rip-off of Model S:

1) Tesla open-sourced its patents. Elon wants other companies to copy their general approach and has repeated said the goal of Tesla is to promote the adoption of electric cars in general. So anyone is free to copy them, and it's no rip-off.

On this point, Elon was talking about good faith use of the patents. There was two scenarios that he described as not being good faith:
1) Doing a clone of Tesla's car such that people might mistake it to be a Tesla.
2) Using Tesla's patents while still suing Tesla for using that company's patents.

This car is really borderline in terms of #1 (a lot of styling details in the front were lifted from Tesla and the proposed specs were lifted directly from the original Model S unveiling).

 

[Doug_G]

1) Tesla open-sourced its patents. Elon wants other companies to copy their general approach and has repeated said the goal of Tesla is to promote the adoption of electric cars in general. So anyone is free to copy them, and it's no rip-off.

This is a huge misconception that I keep hearing. They have only made their patents open. That does NOT mean they have made all their proprietary designs public. Quite the opposite. Only the stuff published on the USPTO is open.

Don't believe the press releases unless there is more credible evidence.

Yes exactly. I would not get excited until people can buy one. I'll give you 99% odds that this will never happen.

 

[brucet999]

This is a huge misconception that I keep hearing. They have only made their patents open.

And there are a lot of them. 249 and counting.

Tesla Motors Inc patents list (updated weekly)

 

[tkizzy]

My project manager travels to China a lot selling test equipment to Chinese electronics makers. He has seen China's engineering up close. His observation is that China is capable of excellent engineering and production quality. They have the expertise and there are some companies striving to be the best, but the drive to at least meet a universal minimum doesn't exist there as it does in a lot of other countries, and regulation of products is very lax. There is still some honor in producing a junk product and making a lot of money with it. In the west, a company producing a product that is too shoddy would probably get sued out of business.

People can debate what the poorest quality cars sold in the US are, by some measures, it's VW, others might say Fiat products, and there are other opinions. But the worst cars sold in the US are probably far more reliable than the bottom rung of cars made in China. The best cars made in China probably are on par with what you can get in the west, but the worst are probably among the worst in the world. China has been eying the US car market, but they still haven't introduced a car in the US market yet. Most of the cars sold in China today are designs from outside the country, though most are built there. I suspect many Chinese cars introduced here would become the new Yugo.

I also noticed the OS for the Youxia is Android which is not the most secure OS in the world.

Lol. You do realize Volkswagen auto group is just behind Toyota as the largest car maker in the world? They've been doing this for a long time. They've got history, legacy, decades of experience. I think it's funny when Americans hate on German cars when in most cases American cars are terrible and usually not very tastefully designed. (Tesla is really in a league of their own, not a traditional American car maker) With one or two exceptions over the years Volkswagen/Audi are pretty renowned for solid build quality ... they share very many parts with Porche, Lamborghini, Audi, Bugatti etc etc.

While I agree that I would avoid a Chinese car in general, are you aware that almost all the big Car companies you can think of have manufacturing plants in China that, in total, make more cars than anywhere else in the world?

 

[wdolson]

For many years Volkswagen was bottom of the list for JD Powers long term reliability. Buick was top of the list for a few years, I think the most recent list puts Buick around #3. Most Volkswagens in the US were built in Brazil for many years and the quality suffered. I think a very large number are built in the US now and the long term reliability is better.

I'm saving my pennies for a Model S and still driving my 23 year old Buick I bought new. It's been a wonderful car, I've never had any serious problems. The original battery lasted 6 1/2 years.

 

[redi]

Clearly a sign of 2 things: forum getting huge, people like to post more than search/read. Unfortunately, solution is to quarantine and review new threads before they go live. Which is more work for mods or more mods.

pre-post pop-up: Be sure brain is engaged before putting mouth in gear.

 

[brucet999]

With one or two exceptions over the years Volkswagen/Audi are pretty renowned for solid build quality ...

My 1999 A6 would certainly be one of those exceptions. Lots of time spent in the shop both before and after warranty ran out. As the saying about boat owners goes, "Two of the happiest days of my life were when I bought it and when I sold it."

 

[cwerdna]

Lol. You do realize Volkswagen auto group is just behind Toyota as the largest car maker in the world? They've been doing this for a long time. They've got history, legacy, decades of experience.

Actually they passed Toyota recently. GM used to be #1 for decades in total sales, then Toyota passed them. Just because they're the largest and have been doing it for a LONG time doesn't mean they make the most reliable cars. VW and GM are prime examples of that.

VW sales are also very low in the US: June 2015: Cheap Gas Moves More Metal Edition, but (VAG) surprisingly high for rest of world.

For many years Volkswagen was bottom of the list for JD Powers long term reliability. Buick was top of the list for a few years, I think the most recent list puts Buick around #3. Most Volkswagens in the US were built in Brazil for many years and the quality suffered. I think a very large number are built in the US now and the long term reliability is better.

JDPA's "long term reliability" is hardly "long term". It's their VDS that only looks at 3 year old cars (length of basic warranties on most cars is only 3 or 4 years): 2015 Vehicle Dependability Study | J.D. Power. I highly doubt that most people in the US only keep their cars for 3 years given that the average US vehicle is now 11.5 years old: http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/07/29/average-us-vehicle-age-hits-record-115-years

I don't think that's correct re: "Most Volkswagens in the US were built in Brazil for many years". Many were coming from Mexico.

As for "I think a very large number are built in the US now..." not really. The ONLY plant they have in the US is the one in Chattanooga, TN and it ONLY builds the Passat. Per VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA REPORTS JUNE SALES GAINING 5.6 PERCENT OVER 2014 : Volkswagen US Media Newsroom, Passat made up only 24% of VW-brand sales in the US. They plan to produce an SUV there but that won't happen until end of 2016: NEW MIDSIZE SUV FROM VOLKSWAGEN TO BE PRODUCED IN CHATTANOOGA : Volkswagen US Media Newsroom

VW also traditionally has done poorly in Consumer Reports reliability surveys. And, it seems I know WAY more people w/unreliable VWs than those w/unreliable Toyotas and Hondas, despite the low % of VW sales in the US.

 

[stopcrazypp]

From what I read in auto news blogs, even VW fans seem to agree reliability is a weak point of the brand especially in the 90s and 00s and especially electrical equipment. The initial quality is great, but after a few years things break apart. In recent years supposedly it has improved. This is a reputation that a lot of German brands share. The American brands were similarly bad in the same period (except they didn't even have that initial quality), but likewise they have improved in recent years.

 

[wdolson]

Actually they passed Toyota recently. GM used to be #1 for decades in total sales, then Toyota passed them. Just because they're the largest and have been doing it for a LONG time doesn't mean they make the most reliable cars. VW and GM are prime examples of that.

VW sales are also very low in the US: June 2015: Cheap Gas Moves More Metal Edition, but (VAG) surprisingly high for rest of world.

JDPA's "long term reliability" is hardly "long term". It's their VDS that only looks at 3 year old cars (length of basic warranties on most cars is only 3 or 4 years): 2015 Vehicle Dependability Study | J.D. Power. I highly doubt that most people in the US only keep their cars for 3 years given that the average US vehicle is now 11.5 years old: http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/07/29/average-us-vehicle-age-hits-record-115-years

I don't think that's correct re: "Most Volkswagens in the US were built in Brazil for many years". Many were coming from Mexico.

As for "I think a very large number are built in the US now..." not really. The ONLY plant they have in the US is the one in Chattanooga, TN and it ONLY builds the Passat. Per VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA REPORTS JUNE SALES GAINING 5.6 PERCENT OVER 2014 : Volkswagen US Media Newsroom, Passat made up only 24% of VW-brand sales in the US. They plan to produce an SUV there but that won't happen until end of 2016: NEW MIDSIZE SUV FROM VOLKSWAGEN TO BE PRODUCED IN CHATTANOOGA : Volkswagen US Media Newsroom

VW also traditionally has done poorly in Consumer Reports reliability surveys. And, it seems I know WAY more people w/unreliable VWs than those w/unreliable Toyotas and Hondas, despite the low % of VW sales in the US.

I think JD Power is the only one doing much long term reliability on nameplates. There are several like CR looking at individual cars. I stand corrected on where VWs are/were made. I know they are a very large worldwide brand.

I saw an article a few months back that the average age of a new car buyer in the US is 52. It also broke down brands, and the age range from brand to brand was not that wide. On average younger drivers are buying used cars more than ever in history.

Anecdotally, I have known a lot of people who bought VWs and had problems. Hardly statistically valid, but I'm not surprised at the reports of poor reliability of VWs.

 

[cwerdna]

I think JD Power is the only one doing much long term reliability on nameplates. There are several like CR looking at individual cars.... I know they are a very large worldwide brand.

JD Power only looks are 3 year old cars, at most. That's not long term given the 11.5 year average age of vehicles in the US.

CR online currently gives reliability ratings of individual models and years going all the way back to 2005. They've also compared brands. Consumer Reports: Infotainment System Woes Mark 2014 Reliability Survey - The Truth About Cars has a chart from last year.

Re: tkizzy's comment about VW's history, legacy, etc. I've seen references to how Honda quickly progressed from a chain driven car to where they are now. They're probably talking about the Honda S600 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia from 1964. Look at where Honda ranks in the above chart vs. VW (founded in 1937). GM was founded in 1908 and they're are far cry from making the most reliable vehicles.

Yes, VAG is MASSIVE in terms of total worldwide sales and has many brands: Volkswagen Group Brands and Products.

VW Passes Toyota to Lead Global Sales in First Half of 2015 - Bloomberg Business is is in reference to my earlier comment.

 

[wallet.dat]

I also noticed the OS for the Youxia is Android which is not the most secure OS in the world.

Tesla MS also uses an Android OS. It'll be interesting to see how it holds up during the next Defcon.

 

[wdolson]

I have read the Tesla runs two OSs. The drive system, battery management, etc. runs a proprietary OS they developed themselves. The displays and infotainment system runs Ubantu Linux.

 

[thegruf]

With one or two exceptions over the years Volkswagen/Audi are pretty renowned for solid build quality ... they share very many parts with Porche, Lamborghini, Audi, Bugatti etc etc.

hmm UK data from Warranty Direct (an extended warranty insurance company) doesnt necessarily support this .

At 13th, Skoda is VAG's highest placed car, followed by SEAT at 19th place, Volkswagen at 21st place and Audi at 31st place.
(The reliability Index is based both on the frequency and the cost of claims.)
BMW comes 26th, Mercedes Benz 30th.
And at the bottom of the list largely due to the cost of claims are Porsche. LandRover and Bentley.

Position​

Make​

Ave Mileage​

RI​

Average cost​

1	Honda	43,916	39	£356.46
2	Suzuki	36,094	46	£258.03
3=	Hyundai	48,162	63	£252.95
3=	Subaru	50,803	63	£300.40
5	Toyota	44,231	70	£392.40
6	Lexus	47,610	81	£432.47
7	Chevrolet	33,590	88	£259.20
8	Mitsubishi	46,543	89	£422.56
9=	Ford	47,298	94	£296.49
9=	Mazda	42,831	94	£441.33
11	Nissan	44,702	96	£369.80
12	Fiat	39,141	97	£272.67
13=	Citroën	43,954	101	£308.64
13=	Skoda	45,134	101	£319.29
15	Peugeot	44,730	105	£285.96
16	Daewoo	34,847	117	£337.40
17	Smart	32,804	118	£300.32
18	Kia	44,134	119	£389.96
19	SEAT	47,256	126	£293.58
20	Vauxhall	47,208	127	£310.24
21	Volkswagen	49,192	135	£336.30
22	MINI	38,094	138	£385.57
23	Renault	44,276	142	£266.32
24	Rover	40,281	151	£379.23
25	Saab	51,370	168	£319.70
26=	BMW	51,521	173	£427.32
26=	Volvo	54,597	173	£403.85
28	MG	34,301	183	£406.46
29	Jaguar	45,876	185	£436.19
30	Mercedes-Benz	48,961	219	£468.32
31	Audi	52,963	230	£525.49
32	Jeep	47,357	232	£430.02
33	Chrysler	49,367	246	£403.15
34	Ssangyong	43,782	247	£387.78
35	Alfa Romeo	47,095	251	£385.54
36	Porsche	36,654	270	£616.22
37	Land Rover	52,733	325	£437.91
38	Bentley	35,494	482	£560.27

 

[tomas]

I know getting way off topic here, but anyone interested in quality stats might want to check out truedelta.com for a crowdsourced look at things. You can also participate if you want... There's quite detailed information that indicates exactly what requires repairs on which auto.

 

[cynix]

Remember this Chinese copycat, the Youxia X? Turns out it's literally a Model S with a body kit.

A reporter visited Youxia's "factory" (apparently it's an abandoned plasticware factory), and snapped some photos of the innards of a Youxia X.

And what does he find? A Tesla battery pack:

And Tesla tie rod and frame:

Tesla skateboard, for comparison:

Source (in Chinese)

 

[doug]

Thanks for the photos. Do you have a source we can credit for them?

 

[cynix]

Thanks for the photos. Do you have a source we can credit for them?

Added link to original Chinese article.

 

[stopcrazypp]

While using Tesla's chassis and battery pack to build a concept car isn't something too controversial (the original Model S concept was based on a CLS if I remember correctly), apparently the Youxia company denied that they used a Tesla chassis, but rather said it was something they completely developed themselves in 400 days. They also said they were using an in-house developed battery (given the pictures above, they obviously didn't).

Here's another article, supposedly written by a former Tesla employee who pointed out all the evidence that they were using Tesla's chassis (his opinion is the same as mine: they should have said outright what they did, it's fraud not to, esp. to deny it).
https://translate.google.com/transl...en.baijia.baidu.com/article/125489&edit-text=
Original chinese article:
http://steven.baijia.baidu.com/article/125489

After that article, the founder still denied they were using a Tesla chassis, but with some pushing from the reporter, said that they based their "design" on Tesla's chassis design and made their own improvements, but still insisted that the chassis itself was not a Tesla chassis (but rather built from ground up).

Here's a link to the same article cynix posted, but from another website:
https://translate.google.com/transl...http://steven.baijia.baidu.com/article/126567
Original Chinese Article:
http://steven.baijia.baidu.com/article/126567
In the end, they mention they did take apart a Model S to look at the design (and that the original Model S chassis is still in their shop), but built their own chassis for the concept. The reporter says during his visit he was not able to find the original Model S chassis.

Given this, anyone who wants to invest in this company should tread carefully. If they outright said that the concept car used a Tesla chassis with some changes, it would not raise alarms with me. However, given they outright lied about developing the chassis themselves completely (and only begrudgingly admitted basing it on a Tesla "design" when caught, while still maintaining the physical chassis was completely built themselves), that raises alarm bells. Sadly this seems like a scam rather than a serious effort to develop a Tesla competitor.

 

[brucet999]

Well, stopcrazypp, I'm glad that article had lots of pictures.