YouYou Xue crashed while on autopilot (aka Model 3 Road Trip)

[boiler81]

And, idiots shouldn't de driving these cars. The AP is designed to supplement your driving and attention, not replace it. Stop being idiots, and the accidents go away.

These comments are short sided.
Every human has failed attentiveness and has had unintended consequences at some point in their life. I just had a finish carpenter friend with 38 years experience cut off three fingers on his table saw he'd work with for years. Lapses in attention happen to all of us, but we need to engineer our products not kill us when these lapses inevitably occur. No reason a vehicle should every drive into a fixed object, no matter where you are in the world.
This is why safety systems are put in place in literally every aspect human life. Why do lawn mowers stop the blade when you let go of the handle. Why do smoke detectors prevent closing the battery door without a battery, etc. I agree "Autopilot" may prevent more accidents then it causes, but I believe it's still not ready for the general public.

P.S. No I'm not cancelling my reservation, but I will think more about getting EAP.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

AP was not the cause of this tragic and avoidable crash (not an accident, as this was preventable). ...

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I don't agree. Driving with AP1 is less challenging than regular driving. Of course it requires that you constantly monitor the road and traffic but so does "regular driving". AP takes care of most of the high-resolution input to the steering and throttle for you which significantly reduces effort and "challenge". I can't speak for AP2 specifically since I've never used it, but from what I've heard it pretty much the same story these days.

I plan to keep on using it.

I'm one of the ones that doesn't use it much as I believe it requires more effort than TACC alone. All my experience is with AP1 from the beginning to where it's at now as I do occasionally try it.

Here are the reasons why.

Truck lust - The main place I'd use AP is on I5 between Seattle, and Portland. For all practical purposes semi-trucks own this route. There are so many of them that every passenger vehicle is at their mercy. Truck lust comes into play because once out of every 300 times one passes a semi the car will veer towards the trailer. I'm pretty convinced that the trailer creates a shadow so the car loses sight of the line, and the ultrasonic sensors don't see the trailer due to the height differences. I haven't seen this behavior reported much with AP2, but its definitely something an AP1 owner has to watch out for.

Taking the exit - Even now it's still a problem where the car will follow the exit lines even if you intend to stay in your lane.

Human nature - I'm the type of personal that will zone out if given the opportunity. If I use AP for a significant amount of time I find myself being less situationally aware than I'd be otherwise. This meant that I simply didn't have the normal degree of awareness of a situational unfolding. We can see from the AP saves videos that a lot of people have posted videos of AP apparently saving them from an accident, but the thing is they wouldn't have been in the position they were in if they had been paying attention.

Awkwardness - AP1 tends to constant corrections which isn't how I like to drive.

Ruts/grooves/etc in the road - AP1 doesn't have any awareness of this. Normally this is only annoying, but can be dangerous if there is water on the roadway.

When it's all said and done I have zero accidents (aside from minor things that don't really count) in my entire 25+ years of driving, and I'm not going to let some entirely underwhelming combinations of technology screw that up. Plus if you have an accident with a Tesla then the entire world knows about it.

The car doesn't know where it is on the road as it's GPS isn't that great
The car can't detect stopped objects (in a confident 99.99% kind of way)
The cars side/blind spot monitoring simply doesn't work
The car doesn't have a 360 top down camera view (to help me get a good situational awareness)
The car can't see stereo (the state of the art in a monocular machine vision is nowhere as a good as stereo vision, and this has been proven by NVidia and likely others)

There is no compelling upside to make it worth the effort. This might change with EAP when it's capable of changing lanes without me telling it to. If this was done really well it might make it compelling enough to upgrade to. Especially if other things on my list are fixed.

 

[MP3Mike]

I'm one of the ones that doesn't use it much as I believe it requires more effort than TACC alone. All my experience is with AP1 from the beginning to where it's at now as I do occasionally try it.

And in the case of YouYou he thought Autosteer was better than TACC. (Maybe.) During the end of his US tour when he was driving south on I5 and EAP had complained about his lack of hands on the wheel and started slowing the vehicle down and turned the hazard lights on. instead of taking over or stopping and resetting so he could use EAP properly again he just put his foot on the accelerator pedal and let Autosteer continue steering without TACC working. It kept flashing warnings, beeping, and he was unable to turn the hazard flashers off. He continued like that for a couple hours until he got to his next Supercharging stop. He streamed this live and he was getting lots of looks from the other people on the road because of the flashers. I guess maybe it is appropriate for him to be driving with hazard flashers on all the time.

 

[mongo]

I feel your post supports banning non-ap / lane assist/ FCW/ AEB cars more that it supports non getting AP...

Every human has failed attentiveness and has had unintended consequences at some point in their life. I just had a finish carpenter friend with 38 years experience cut off three fingers on his table saw he'd work with for years. Lapses in attention happen to all of us, but we need to engineer our products not kill us when these lapses inevitably occur.

This is why safety systems are put in place in literally every aspect human life.

I agree "Autopilot" may prevent more accidents then it causes, but I believe it's still not ready for the general public.

So if AP prevents accidents, and provides safety features, which you state are needed due to human failings, what is the problem with EAP?

Non AP car, fall asleep: car in ditch
Non AP car, get distracted: rear end car in front of you.
Non AP car, have sneezing fit: drift into incoming lane.
AP car: will at least try to prevent those effects from happening.

AP may not save you all situations, but it rarely causes any on it's own (and an attentive drive would take over at that point)

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

These comments are short sided.
Every human has failed attentiveness and has had unintended consequences at some point in their life. I just had a finish carpenter friend with 38 years experience cut off three fingers on his table saw he'd work with for years. Lapses in attention happen to all of us, but we need to engineer our products not kill us when these lapses inevitably occur. No reason a vehicle should every drive into a fixed object, no matter where you are in the world.
This is why safety systems are put in place in literally every aspect human life. Why do lawn mowers stop the blade when you let go of the handle. Why do smoke detectors prevent closing the battery door without a battery, etc. I agree "Autopilot" may prevent more accidents then it causes, but I believe it's still not ready for the general public.

P.S. No I'm not cancelling my reservation, but I will think more about getting EAP.

I can be empathetic to failures in attention as a result of distraction. Things that happen to humans on a fairly routine basis. I still manage to hit my head on low hanging things all the time despite being the same height for 25+ years.

But, as soon as someone picks up a phone then all that empathy goes away. It's no longer an innocent moment of inattention. Obviously the frequency of hitting my head on things has gone up with cell phone usage.

Most of the serious accidents with AP happened as the result of not just momentary lapses of attention, but prolonged lapses. Like when the uber driver mowed down the pedestrian. If we had videos of the inside of each accidents I would be really surprised if a phone wasn't involved in some fashion in all of them.

As to technology I completely agree with you. The problem is no production car on the road today can safely stop for stopped objects from high speed (60-80mph). There are some that have a low range lidar based system that work great at low speed, and Subaru has their stereo eyesight system that might be pretty good at. But, I've seen no evidence of system that has > 99.99% detection of lots of different stopped objects (trailers, road machinery, gore points, barriers, gore points, etc).

I'm not sure Tesla AP2 ever can because it doesn't have frame sync'd stereo forward vision. It has cameras with different FOV's where Tesla might to get some kind of decent depth information for overlapping areas, but they don't currently do that today.

When I do upgrade from AP1 to AP2 I'll definitely get EAP. The TACC by itself is a must have, and AP can be safe as long as you know the limitations of both yourself and the technology. Education is the biggest factor in preventing accidents, but it still won't stop most from doing stupid things like using their cell phones. The whole one hand on the wheel and one hand on a cell phone really needs to stop. The people that do that make driving so difficult because without AP they're all over the place, and with AP they're hidden dangers.

 

[sundaymorning]

AP takes the fatigue out of driving, it’s less stress and allows my brain to process what’s happening in my surrounding. It’s like having an extra set of eyes. Lane changes are easier as I’m able to look over my shoulder a bit longer, etc.

 

[Edibeler]

Is this the same guy?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

AP takes the fatigue out of driving, it’s less stress and allows my brain to process what’s happening in my surrounding. It’s like having an extra set of eyes. Lane changes are easier as I’m able to look over my shoulder a bit longer, etc.

What I love about TACC is it gives me 90% of this reduction in fatigue as it is an extra sets of eyes. You get this with a system that hardly screws up. With AP you get a bit more, but at a higher potential cost where it screws up more. I've certainly had more embarrassing "oops I look like an idiot" with AP then with TACC only.

Lane changes are certainly easier with TACC. Although I do admit that sometimes for lane changes I engage AP since it changes lanes so smoothly.

I think people on both sides of the table make way too much of a big deal about AP. Most of us that have had the system for awhile knows its limitation, and our own limitation. Where if we use it or not is entirely situationally dependent.

I love using it in the middle lane of a three lane freeway without much semi truck traffic. In this situation it's really quite good with minimal chances of mess ups.

 

[Electroman]

And in the case of YouYou he thought Autosteer was better than TACC. (Maybe.) During the end of his US tour when he was driving south on I5 and EAP had complained about his lack of hands on the wheel and started slowing the vehicle down and turned the hazard lights on. instead of taking over or stopping and resetting so he could use EAP properly again he just put his foot on the accelerator pedal and let Autosteer continue steering without TACC working. It kept flashing warnings, beeping, and he was unable to turn the hazard flashers off. He continued like that for a couple hours until he got to his next Supercharging stop. He streamed this live and he was getting lots of looks from the other people on the road because of the flashers. I guess maybe it is appropriate for him to be driving with hazard flashers on all the time.

What an IDIOT !!

Sooner or later stupidity catches up to you as a major failing. They say that criminals, most of them get caught because they get cocky and leave a lot of trails. It is only a matter of time that they slip up and get caught.

Same with AP stupidity. You are going to find yourself in a ditch or worse 6 feet under.

 

[sundaymorning]

What I love about TACC is it gives me 90% of this reduction in fatigue as it is an extra sets of eyes. You get this with a system that hardly screws up. With AP you get a bit more, but at a higher potential cost where it screws up more. I've certainly had more embarrassing "oops I look like an idiot" with AP then with TACC only.

Lane changes are certainly easier with TACC. Although I do admit that sometimes for lane changes I engage AP since it changes lanes so smoothly.

I think people on both sides of the table make way too much of a big deal about AP. Most of us that have had the system for awhile knows its limitation, and our own limitation. Where if we use it or not is entirely situationally dependent.

I love using it in the middle lane of a three lane freeway without much semi truck traffic. In this situation it's really quite good with minimal chances of mess ups.

When the system screws up I’m able to retake control, it doesn’t take much to sense the car is a bit off even with one hand on the wheel.

The trick is that both eyes also has to be watching the road and not one’s phone.

 

[tpatana]

The more I learn about this guy, the more I believe there's some part missing from the story. Maybe he nodded off for few seconds while hand on wheel, felt the steering wheel turn right towards the exit and as reaction jolted it left to the barrier. Or was totally on his phone, maybe posting update about his trip, or something.

At this point I don't believe the story about AP suddenly jerking the car to the barrier. I hope he brings the car somewhere (US and/or EU sc/dc) where they can upload the telemetry. That would give more information on what actually happened. Would be really interesting to see actual wheel turning data for the 10 seconds before the impact.

I don't completely dismiss the possibility for mechanical failure, as he had reported noise from suspension. I still feel most likely cause was him being non-observant for some time, for reason or another.

 

[Nilnoc]

For YouYou, the problem with AP is that it’s not fool proof....

 

[Nilnoc]

I only have 2100 miles on my model X. In the time I’ve had it, I’ve probably used AP for no more than 5% of my total miles. I’ve used TACC for ten times that. Obviously, I’m no AP expert.
1. It’s fun driving this car. Why let the Tesla have the fun?
2. I only expect to use AP on the open road.

YouYou, Walter H., the latest fire truck incident have this in common: intersections/interchanges. There’s enough information available to know these are problems for AP.

I have always gone to defdriv 1 when approaching a freeway interchange. I fear the idiot who will zoom across from the far left lane upon realizing he’s going to miss his exit. The idiot who decides at the last minute he does not want to exit. The driver merging who just does not see me (or does not look). The driver who follows a “slow” car down the ramp and immediately heads for the fast lane.

So I don’t care that AP has issues at freeway interchanges. I’m giving my car my full attention where highways meet.

One last thing about You You: He says it happened late at night, but he wasn’t tired because he’d slept well the night before. Hmmm. I say, probably not razor sharp. He was consulting the nav on his phone. Probably not quite sure about location, what to do next, and fully focused on the phone, not on the Y in the road. Sensed car deviating from straight ahead, momentary panic, too late realization of situation, steer jerk reaction to event. Crash.

 

[Dogwhistle]

I so hope Tesla is able to download the data from that car. But despite Yo Yo’s posturing, he knows if they get ahold of that info, they will call total B.S. to his story. If it gets close to that point, I’m sure his computer will somehow have experienced “damage” that will make the data unretrievable.

 

[shonline]

I don't agree. Driving with AP1 is less challenging than regular driving. Of course it requires that you constantly monitor the road and traffic but so does "regular driving". AP takes care of most of the high-resolution input to the steering and throttle for you which significantly reduces effort and "challenge". I can't speak for AP2 specifically since I've never used it, but from what I've heard it pretty much the same story these days.

I plan to keep on using it.

I agree. Just did from home to DC almost entirely on AP1 and feel great. Same drive in my wife’s ICE MB and I feel like I need a keg of my own to recover. There is NO comparison if you are smart enough to understand YOUR role...

 

[tpatana]

I have ~200 miles on my M3 now. Probably 150+ is with AP enabled. That's why I got the car in the first place.

 

[shonline]

And in the case of YouYou he thought Autosteer was better than TACC. (Maybe.) During the end of his US tour when he was driving south on I5 and EAP had complained about his lack of hands on the wheel and started slowing the vehicle down and turned the hazard lights on. instead of taking over or stopping and resetting so he could use EAP properly again he just put his foot on the accelerator pedal and let Autosteer continue steering without TACC working. It kept flashing warnings, beeping, and he was unable to turn the hazard flashers off. He continued like that for a couple hours until he got to his next Supercharging stop. He streamed this live and he was getting lots of looks from the other people on the road because of the flashers. I guess maybe it is appropriate for him to be driving with hazard flashers on all the time.

The guy is an idiot.

 

[EfficientWatts]

i don't understand why people are so triggered to even the suggestion of renaming autopilot. if it's just a name change and the underlying tech is still the same, would you still be opposed. or if it wasn't even called autopilot in the first place, would you still be mad?


and oh so predictable, the downvotes come in... bring it on! 2x yay!

 

[Nilnoc]

if it wasn't even called autopilot in the first place, would you still be mad?

No.