Zendure Superbase-V is a DIY PowerWall starting at $2499 and as little as 41¢/Wh

[sunwarriors]

I have been TRYING to find that out for 3 years now. I have seen a few people on craigslist who were selling the hardware that they got as part of the referral promotions back in the day. I could not find ANYONE who could confirm or deny that actual human beings could hook up their own PowerWall. Ryan McCaffrey has a Tesla podcast and he ended up hiring a solar company to install his and install solar for his house. I already have solar that I installed myself, so I would like to add batteries to it, but how do I get in Tesla's good graces and have them PTO my system?

Thus I have NOT purchased anyone's PowerWall system off craigslist

I'm guessing you have to be approved by Tesla to do that. If you're DIY, you can get certified in the Enphase University to provision those as well, but that's time, $$ to learn a proprietory system.

I think in your case, if you're hardcore DIY, check this forum and see what those folks do:

Energy Storage

Are you a battery addict? Same here. You can NEVER have too many batteries!

diysolarforum.com

Labor is a lot of $$ normally for an install so yes, you'll always save $$, but if things break, you also have to fix everything yourself. I think folks buy old Leafs and use those massive batteries too.


Edit:
Wanted to add that I'm guessing that these portables aren't going to qualify for the 30% credit: Was trying to find old posts and I don't think anything portable would qualify since they're not permanently attached to a house. DIY rack mount or something less fancy may qualify though if it's bolted to a wall or something I'm guessing:

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/wr5ioj

‘‘(6) QUALIFIED BATTERY STORAGE TECHNOLOGY EXPENDI- TURE.—The term ‘qualified battery storage technology expenditure’ means an expenditure for battery storage technology which—

‘‘(A) is installed in connection with a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the taxpayer, and

 

[charlesj]

I have been TRYING to find that out for 3 years now. I have seen a few people on craigslist who were selling the hardware that they got as part of the referral promotions back in the day. I could not find ANYONE who could confirm or deny that actual human beings could hook up their own PowerWall. Ryan McCaffrey has a Tesla podcast and he ended up hiring a solar company to install his and install solar for his house. I already have solar that I installed myself, so I would like to add batteries to it, but how do I get in Tesla's good graces and have them PTO my system?

Thus I have NOT purchased anyone's PowerWall system off craigslist

I was lucky to get PW in 2019 and installed in 2020 for my existing Enphase solar. Now, it is next to impossible, it appears.

 

[mikesm]

Thats putting together things that do not go together. The base configuration of the truck for this discussion is not relevant, because it will not offer that feature. You also will not be pulling up to your home with your truck and just "plugging in" without several thousand dollars of equipment installed by SunRun, including a specific charger from ford and other needed equipment.

Im all for choice, but I am not for mis information, and intimating someone can buy a 40k ford lighting and then use some version of V2H is not accurate.

First off, I was mostly trying to make the point that Powerwalls are pretty expensive for the storage they provide. Just do the kWh comparison for the cost of storage. It's true that a base F150 needs a 1.3K charger, and electrical work to add it to your home, but the electrical work is likely significant for a Powerwall installation as well, especially if it's a standalone retrofit. The F150 is one of the first vehicles that supports V2H, and Sunrun is an optional choice, which means that folks could use the F150 system with other kinds of ATS etc... Yes, it's not a vertically integrated system like Powerwall+Gateway etc.., but then again, it may be able to be used as part of a system that supports generators and normal transfer switches (that can handle > 200 Amps)

In any case, I am not saying that people should get a F150 instead of powerwalls - most people don't have the garage space to leave a vehicle in there, and it takes up a lot of space for a battery. But from a value POV, it shows how expensive Powerwalls are, and hopefully someone with scale will compete with Tesla and build a more cost-effective product. V2H may be that path, or maybe Ford etc... will start offering back up batteries that build on their battery scale. One can only hope for more cost effective storage if we are really going to make green energy work.

 

[israndy]

The downside of the Ford system as revealed by Nicki of TEN (Transport Evolved News) is if your vehicle isn't there when the power goes out you can't save what's in the fridge. She had left for San Diego for the Fully Charged Live event when she got the call that the power was out at her Portland residence due to the heatwave and wildfires. One advantage is you can leave the house to get more power away from your local outage and return, but you could also just add solar to most battery packs, the sun'll come out tomorrow.

I have solar and so adding batteries means I can use solar power after the sun goes away, sure I can survive a power outage too but that's pretty rare at home. So I'll be charging the batteries every day and running the house off them every night. And as I have said, occasionally taking one to the cabin so if the power goes out I can run the fridge and the furnace off it and recharge it when the power returns. Cabin power went out just last night for a few hours according to PG&E's texts.

 

[charlesj]

The downside of the Ford system as revealed by Nicki of TEN (Transport Evolved News) is if your vehicle isn't there when the power goes out you can't save what's in the fridge. She had left for San Diego for the Fully Charged Live event when she got the call that the power was out at her Portland residence due to the heatwave and wildfires. One advantage is you can leave the house to get more power away from your local outage and return, but you could also just add solar to most battery packs, the sun'll come out tomorrow.

I have solar and so adding batteries means I can use solar power after the sun goes away, sure I can survive a power outage too but that's pretty rare at home. So I'll be charging the batteries every day and running the house off them every night. And as I have said, occasionally taking one to the cabin so if the power goes out I can run the fridge and the furnace off it and recharge it when the power returns. Cabin power went out just last night for a few hours according to PG&E's texts.

Yep, all about probabilities of events.

 

[jboy210]

Yep, all about probabilities of events.

Unfortunately, the probabilities seem to be increasing quite a lot. We went from 2000-2010 without a power outage. This year we have had 4 multi-hour outages including one for a day and a 1/2. The 2 Powerwall cost increase ($11K) to solar install seems pretty minor in hindsight.

 

[BGbreeder]

Unfortunately, the probabilities seem to be increasing quite a lot. We went from 2000-2010 without a power outage. This year we have had 4 multi-hour outages including one for a day and a 1/2. The 2 Powerwall cost increase ($11K) to solar install seems pretty minor in hindsight.

Similar situation here. Very little downtime prior to 2010, but this last 12 month stretch has had 52 hours of downtime.

 

[israndy]

Just 3 hours to go, so exciting

 

[wwu123]

Any updates from @israndy or other forum members on the Zendure "DIY Powerwalls"? Particuarly wrt the 6.4kwh "semi-solid" units that have higher claimed density/capacity than LFP or Li-Ion ones that EcoFlow and others have similar offerings....

Was looking at the Kickstarter today, and typically Updates are only provided to backers, but in reading through the public comments, seems like the 6.4kwh semi-solid have shipped to a handful of folks already, while others seem to have tracking numbers for delivery soon. Not much specific comment about whether the higher capacity holds true, as it seems there are issues with accurate SoC reporting with the app (possibly more software/firmware glitches).

But also some initial concerns about higher self-discharge rates (50w), which would translate to losing 1.2kwh per day, or 20%. This would be per unit, so 2x of these to be closer to one Powerwall would be 2.4 kwh/day. How many watts do Powerwalls consume while operating but not charging/discharging? For backup, high self-discharge would be problematic, but for daily load-shifting, self-discharge vs self-consumption might be in the same ballpark, and also maybe negligible compared to 10% roundtrip inefficiencies - again for load-shifting, not backup.

 

[israndy]

Also if you just want it for backup and don’t NEED the immediate switchover (or you would have to run extension cords to the things you want backed up) you could just turn the unit off when it’s charged. My understanding of LFP is that it’s not terrible to charge them to 100% and then leave them there. Not like NMC, which any long term foray into full or empty will very much impact the batteries life.

I got a message this week that my battery was at the warehouse in Walnut, CA, and if I wanted to pick it up I’d save on shipping. I of course in NorCal misread it as Walnut Creek, CA and agreed to pick up my batts. It wasn’t until I put the address into my car that the directions show an 800 mile trip to get the batts, so I will be the LAST of the current shipment to get his batts, oops! Not a big deal as the Home Panel won’t ship until later this month anyway. I did set up my RV battery with an inverter/charger to play with what having a big battery will be like. This little batt has enough power to run my Plasma TV all night so I can’t wait to see what the SBV is going to be able to do.

 

[cali8484]

But also some initial concerns about higher self-discharge rates (50w), which would translate to losing 1.2kwh per day, or 20%.

For perspective, what's the self discharge in a Powerwall?

 

[Redhill_qik]

For perspective, what's the self discharge in a Powerwall?

200-250Wh per day.

 

[wwu123]

@israndy, any updates you might be able to share on your Zendure kickstarter? I think I saw a comment you'd written on another site, that you'd gotten them up and running a few months ago - would be interested in your insights and perspectives to date.

Particularly curious about the Zendure, as I think I've gotten myself into PG&E's BPTM (Backup Power Transfer Meter) queue, it might take months but could be possible they'll have the 240V 14-30 generator socket installed behind my meter by this winter. I am of course getting a 240V generator per the program (and separate PG&E rebate), but am thinking to get a "battery generator" to also be able to feed quiet power through the BPTM at night. The Zendure Superbase V seems almost unique in providing 240V output from a single unit, competitors like the EcoFlow Pro Delta need two paired up with transfer switch kit to obtain 240V...

 

[israndy]

It's 240v at 16a, so won't run much, but you can charge your car from it, although the outlet isn't common like a NEMA 14-50, it's a NEMA 6-20 which you can get a plug for your Tesla UMC. I also got an adapter to go from J1772 plugs into the Zendure EU style car charger port and took it to a local EV charger and it worked just fine. I hooked my refrigerator at home to it and the battery powers it 24/7 and charges only when there is free solar (same app I wrote for my Tesla also controls the Zendure's charging).

Really I got this with the intent to install their Smart Home Panel but it's been months and it still hasn't arrived. The last quote I got was delivery in June, but that's almost over and no mention from Zendure. They really lose their appeal without the sub panel so I am mostly just sitting on them. I should be able to take one with us to the cabin while leaving the other to continue to power the Smart Panel while we are gone...

I did take one up to the cabin to try out. I don't know how long I could run the furnace/fridge on it, but I know I could charge it from the 2000 watt generator we have up there and then turn it off overnight and the house could continue run from battery. Also could hook solar to the the Zendure w/o permits as it's all after the meter.

But the main reason I got them was to time shift power, charge them from solar or cheap overnight power and then use them during the expensive TOU 4-9 pm period to run the house from. We don't usually have outages at home so don't need a system that can power my solar system and charge from it at the same time (like the PowerWall) though I think that might be a requirement to get home battery rebates. Sadly I paid for mine in Dec. '22 so I am not eligible anyway, unless it's based on delivery date...

 

[jjrandorin]

Sadly I paid for mine in Dec. '22 so I am not eligible anyway, unless it's based on delivery date...

Im not a Tax expert, and am not even going to pretend to be. With that out of the way, I thought most of these rules were around "placed into service", when tax credit discussions always pop up.

If you ordered it in Dec of 22 but didnt receive it till sometime in 2023, it seems to me like you might want to consult your tax professional on whether "placed into service" in 2023 applied for you.

I dont know if the credits even apply for movable storage (as I mentioned I am not an expert and am not pretending to be). If it were me I might look into it though.

 

[BGbreeder]

I'm not a tax expert either, nor do I play on on TV.

This site says there is energy storage must be more than 3kWh and it must be "...installed in connection with a dwelling unit located in the United States..." House boats are called out, but RVs are not. YMMV...

Battery Storage Technology Tax Credit

www.energystar.gov

The IRS site contains more information, and mentions supporting the cost of the wiring required for installation. It clarifies that manufactured homes must meet Federal design rules.

Instructions for Form 5695 (2023) | Internal Revenue Service

www.irs.gov

I have to say that a battery that rolls up and rolls away does seem very "installed" to me, but, hey, I am no tax expert.

BG

 

[wwu123]

I'm not a tax expert either, nor do I play on on TV.

This site says there is energy storage must be more than 3kWh and it must be "...installed in connection with a dwelling unit located in the United States..." House boats are called out, but RVs are not. YMMV...

Battery Storage Technology Tax Credit

www.energystar.gov

The IRS site contains more information, and mentions supporting the cost of the wiring required for installation. It clarifies that manufactured homes must meet Federal design rules.

Instructions for Form 5695 (2023) | Internal Revenue Service

www.irs.gov

I have to say that a battery that rolls up and rolls away does seem very "installed" to me, but, hey, I am no tax expert.

BG

If @israndy ever gets the Smart Home Panel from Zendure and installs it, that piece is certainly meant to be permanently installed in the house. So I think at that point it's all about intent. Just because the battery can roll doesn't mean it is going to be used as a portable - that particular Superbase V battery is pretty large and heavy to take camping or elsewhere. Similarly if you stack the add-on batteries, those don't have wheels and don't seem to be that practical for anything other than home use.

I understand some of the EV tax credits for consumers are meant for owners who plan to keep the car for personal use, sometimes for a certain period. However, it's all about intent at the time of purchase, and if you re-sell before that period you don't necessarily have to give it back, because it is only about the intent at the initial purchase.

 

[israndy]

Well that a TON of good news, thanks everyone. A little worried about the Home Panel that shows as Sold Out and Unavailable on Zendure's website. I could always just get a generator transfer switch and wire that in using the Zendure Zen-Y cable to get enough power from two SBVs to drive the oven even.

But the batts themselves seem to be working as expected, well, until tonight when one of them failed to take an update, hope their tech support is able to get it working again.

 

[wwu123]

So while my primary motivation is something that can plug into the BPTM during outages (the BPTM will only activate when it detects grid is down), I'm also interested to start testing load-shifting in prep for being pushed to NEM3 down the road (10 years from now, but hey, I'm bored now...). By testing, it's not going to pan out financially right now as E-TOU-C is my current lowest cost plan, and load-shifting only gains like $0.08/kwh - but I can track what I'd be saving on EV2-A $0.31/kwh or E-ELEC or other plan that would pair well with daily load-shifting. Or possibly even now running a small solar-powered off-grid setup for a handful of 24x7 loads

Are you already testing load-shifting? Like does the Superbase V have a UPS-like mode, i.e. can power things while it itself is plugged in, but then switch over to battery mode (either manually by unplugging it, or automatically through one of its controls)? I'm curious about certain efficiency characteristics that might matter more for daily load-shifting:
-roundtrip efficiency - how energy out of battery vs energy in. E.g. do you get only 90% out from a 100% charge. Since load-shifting cycles capacity once/day
-AC inverter losses - this seems commonly tested in reviews, how much power is lost when the inverters are on. Seems like high output wattage often comes at a cost, as the standby power consumption when the inverters are on seems to be commonly proportional to the inverter size. Running in UPS mode instead of only for emergency would mean inverters are on all the time, increasing losses. Bluetti came out with a new model with a smaller inverter relative to the kwh capacity, I think designed more for load-shifting, for this.
-standby losses - other self-consumption of the electronics when DC power is on, say for 12V DC devices, but AC inverter is not on (i.e. standby losses aside from AC inverter losses)

-self-discharge losses - how much energy is lost over time even when battery is not even on (not so much an efficiency issue for load-shifting I guess, just hassle factor for how often need to keep it charged for emergency power)

 

[wwu123]

Just watched Hobotech's prototype unit review of the Superbase V 6400 - he and Will Prowse seem like the most knowledgeable and also technical reviewers of battery generators. From a tax credit perspective, I think it is entirely uniquely justifiable to defend that design point of the Superbase V is for home use, and not other portable uses, particularly with the 240V input/output - even if it's not permanently wired into a home panel. From the Hobotech review:
-repeatedly states it's not really portable despite having powered wheels - also he couldn't even lift the unit onto the table himself for the video
-first battery with simultaneous 120V/240V output - 240V really only for home loads, together with inverter capacity could include well pump, resistance hot water heater, etc.
-can be charged from 240V AC, only for charging at home (even though you could take it to a L2 EV charger, who would lug it there every time?)
-6.4 kwh capacity expandable to 64 kwh - capacity and weight only relevant for home use
-his recommendation for solar charging? - up to 3kw of 320W fixed glass solar panels, not dinky portable solar panels
-UPS feature with some 0ms delay outlets - really only relevant if unit is normally plugged into AC outlet at home to power loads that need UPS, like home PC