Daft Liverpool decision to ban EVs from car park

[WilberDaForce]

I note they didn’t even commit to reviewing their daft policy…

Electric car driver turned away from hospital car park

Experts say it does not make sense as research suggests petrol cars are much more likely to catch fire.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Pink Duck]

Also, upgrading their sprinkler system, so why is any vehicle allowed to park there in the interim, particular ones loaded with fossil fuels?!

Won’t somebody think of the children!

 

[djtaylor]

Breaking News: Liverpool Council renews their lifetime subscription to Daily Mail.

 

[Roy Batty]

Why on earth don't they just ban Land Rover diesels, one of them was responsible for Luton airport fire and also the Liverpool one a few years back.

 

[fholbert]

Why on earth don't they just ban Land Rover diesels, one of them was responsible for Luton airport fire and also the Liverpool one a few years back.

Tell me again, where is the Land Rover brand based? Might as well outlaw Jaguars.

 

[Roy Batty]

Tell me again, where is the Land Rover brand based? Might as well outlaw Jaguars.

View attachment 1044149

Although it's got a factory in Liverpool it certainly isn't based there, that would be Brum or Coventry.

The point stands though, the big car park fires of recent years were both started by LR products, not EVs.

 

[Pandinium]

They banned them because they couldn’t cut the catalytic out something up valuable revenue space

 

[UrbanSplash]

Blame the local fire brigade. They advised on the matter.

 

[pgkevet]

Irrational media hype. The hospital didn't ban EV's ..just from that car park on fire brigade advice. Statistics of fossil:EV fires are only one part of the story. The other aspect is the difficulty of handling them if they do happen. A sprinkler system must be a good start if only to stop fires spreading. Indeed I’d like to see legislation compelling every public and commercial building being sprinkler equipped UK and private houses over a certain size or above a certain height off the ground.
NFPA report - U.S. Experience with Sprinklers

 

[Fursty Ferret]

The hospital didn't ban EV's ..just from that car park on fire brigade advice.

Arguably the problem here is the fire service giving dodgy advice. The hospital doesn’t really have a choice as they’d be in an indefensible position if something did happen.

The fire service has a history of being anti EV. They’ve objected to battery installations all over the country on spurious grounds. Like many public bodies they unfortunately have a lot of power without a huge amount of education to back it up.

 

[GlynG]

I see both sides, EVs don't have a propensity to self ignite - but they can, ICE doesn't often self ignite - but they can - the issue is IF an EV spontaneously combusts it burns at such a temperature that it affects the structural integrity of the building or car park its in and the radiated heat increases the likelihood of combustible materials in close proximity to ignite - and therefore spread.
Conventional fire fighting techniques like smothering the fire to deprive it of oxygen doesn't work because the battery chemicals produce their own oxygen as they burn.

Petrol - well that has a low flashpoint and because its a liquid it spreads easily - and nowadays contained in a plastic petrol tank, a rupture or a melting of the tank will allow a significant spread of a highly flammable liquid.
Diesel - Hardly an issue at all, difficult to ignite but will fuel the burning of another combustible material - sort of like wax on a wick for a candle.

Risks - all risks need to be managed, more obviously could be done to supress an EV fire - perhaps an inbuilt self smothering system within the battery case itself, sprinkler systems in all enclosed parking areas - including domestic garages and compulsory adoption for domestic garages that are integrated into the home. H&S is about enabling not blocking or preventing - or would be if assessors could think outside the box.

Until we have parity of numbers of EVs and ICE on the roads, plus vehicles reaching a significant age where the effect of age may become a significant factor in determining the fire risks we don't really know if EVs are more or less likely to combust than an ICE.
Who knows what the risks are with 30 year old batteries where their metal cases have rusted through within a scrap yard scenario with hundreds of other vehicles, are the batteries really so recyclable?, will battery reprocessing be a viable business? Will BEV be a temporary fuel for vehicles in the grand scheme of our personal transport history in a few hundreds of years time?

We have to manage what we have now, with the tools we have and tech available, Instead we actually have a culture of arse protecting - every single organisation and person only really wants to avoid being responsible for any negativity or blame, they don't care if disaster happens just as long as the finger isn't pointed to them to take the rap and the financial consequences of being proven to be at fault.

It is ironic though, The NHS promotes EV ownership via Salary Sacrifice but don't want the employees to park on site.

 

[GRiLLA]

Arguably the problem here is the fire service giving dodgy advice. The hospital doesn’t really have a choice as they’d be in an indefensible position if something did happen.

The fire service has a history of being anti EV. They’ve objected to battery installations all over the country on spurious grounds. Like many public bodies they unfortunately have a lot of power without a huge amount of education to back it up.

That is according to the hospital, who knows what they asked and what they were told. I doubt that Fire Prevention Officers would give out Facebook rumours.

From what I read based on the reports from that big fire in a Liverpool multistorey sprinklers are predominantly to supress fuel fires, where the burning fuel leaks from car and flows between floors spreading the blaze. I've no expertise to really interpret this stuff though.

 

[Fursty Ferret]

They’ve objected to every proposed large-scale battery installation on safety grounds.

 

[Pink Duck]

One could argue they are simply lazy and unwilling to do their primary job.

 

[Roy Batty]

They’ve objected to every proposed large-scale battery installation on safety grounds.

Is this across the UK? Even for Lithium Iron Phosphate sites?

I remember walking around the aftermath of the Buncefield Fuel Depot explosion, some of the large warehouses surrounding it were in a shocking state.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Is this across the UK? Even for Lithium Iron Phosphate sites?

I remember walking around the aftermath of the Buncefield Fuel Depot explosion, some of the large warehouses surrounding it were in a shocking state.

I remember as well. Big visible cracks down buildings far from the site. Datacentres taken out affecting lots of councils & companies.

I heard a story about a bloke who went outside his house to light up a cigarette. Sparked his lighter just as the explosion went off. Few seconds of alarmed confusion before he worked out it wasn't him.

From Wiki

the explosions were heard up to 125 miles (200 km) away; there were reports that they were audible in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands.[2][6][11]

The British Geological Survey monitored the event, which measured 2.4 on the Richter scale.[4][9][11] It was reported that people were woken in south London, and as far west as Wokingham (about 28 miles (45 km)), where in its southern suburb, Finchampstead, numerous people felt the shockwave after the initial explosion. Subsequent explosions occurred at 06:27 and 06:28.[5][6]

Witnesses many miles from the terminal observed flames hundreds of feet high; the smoke cloud was visible from space, and from as far north as Lincolnshire (about 70 miles (110 km) away)

Roads near me have been closed and/or resurfaced many times from fuel HGV fires or spillages of diesel making the road more slippery than ice.

There's no comparison between battery and fuel dangers, fuel being much more frequent and impactful - just media is used to this. Then there's the frequent flooding of garages and release of fuel into flood waters, rivers and the sea.

 

[Roy Batty]

I remember as well. Big visible cracks down buildings far from the site. Datacentres taken out affecting lots of councils & companies.

I heard a story about a bloke who went outside his house to light up a cigarette. Sparked his lighter just as the explosion went off. Few seconds of alarmed confusion before he worked out it wasn't him.

From Wiki



Roads near me have been closed and/or resurfaced many times from fuel HGV fires or spillages of diesel making the road more slippery than ice.

There's no comparison between battery and fuel dangers, fuel being much more frequent and impactful - just media is used to this. Then there's the frequent flooding of garages and release of fuel into flood waters, rivers and the sea.

Walking around one of the affected buildings was very weird, overnight a massive distribution centre, bakery and warehouse for McDonalds was switched off.

Given a lot of these battery storage facilities will be in the middle of nowhere it does seem odd fire safety would be an issue, given it's a mature technology now.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Walking around one of the affected buildings was very weird, overnight a massive distribution centre, bakery and warehouse for McDonalds was switched off.

Given a lot of these battery storage facilities will be in the middle of nowhere it does seem odd fire safety would be an issue, given it's a mature technology now.

Previously (maybe even still), it only took one person to object to renewables projects.

NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard) have "think of the house prices" incentives - they probably need discounted electricity incentives to counteract.

 

[Roy Batty]

Previously (maybe even still), it only took one person to object to renewables projects.

NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard) have "think of the house prices" incentives - they probably need discounted electricity incentives to counteract.

These sort of projects desperately need to be on a critical national infrastructure bit of legislation, or maybe one of the investors to sue the council/government for not meeting their climate obligations in denying planning permission.

 

[Roy B]

It'd say that the biggest risk is an ICE vehicle starting a fire that then ignites a nearby EV, making the fire substantially harder to manage.

Of course you _could _ mitigate that risk by banning all ICE vehicles from the car park, but you can probably see why that solution won't fly right now. A couple of decades from now, that probably _will_ be how we manage the risk, however