Dewg
Active Member
In this case, wouldn't FSD creep to gain visibility? It wasn't a controlled intersection.How would the case be different if there was a limit line?
The complaint is that FSD stops too far back to properly see traffic!
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In this case, wouldn't FSD creep to gain visibility? It wasn't a controlled intersection.How would the case be different if there was a limit line?
The complaint is that FSD stops too far back to properly see traffic!
it stops much farther than 2-3 feet from the limit line. Look at @AlanSubie4Life’s pictures!If there was a limit line and it was behind the bushes, the law would have been satisfied even if the car couldn't properly see traffic. But because there was no limit line and the defendant stopped at the stop sign and stop lettering, the second part of the law became controlling.
The complaint on FSD is it doesn't stop at the limit line, but rather with it visible to the vehicle camera (which is about 2-3 feet back), which is inclusive of scenarios when there is clear visibility to traffic even stopping 2-3 feet back.
My understanding is that FSD creeps forward anyways if there are any visibility issues (for example in the above scenario if the limit line was where bushes would obscure the intersection, it would stop 2-3 feet to the limit line and then do a very slow creep until the intersection was visible).
I'm not sure that case law would be evidence that the actions of FSD would be deemed illegal. The limit line makes a big difference here.
Creeping is why the guy got the ticket. You’re supposed to stop where you can see the intersection. If you stop where you can’t see the intersection and then creep what’s the point of stopping? You might as well just do a “California stop”In this case, wouldn't FSD creep to gain visibility? It wasn't a controlled intersection.
It is illegal to stop too far back in California. Defendant convicted for stopping 10 feet back.
you're concerned that stopping 6-8 feet from a stop line (or crosswalk at an intersection) is illegal.
Well...sometimes they are. I think because they try to make sure there's space for an unmarked crosswalk. But yes, not really too relevant here. If the line's there, you have to stop at it, then creep. Visibility which may be limited at the limit line is going to be even worse if you stop another 8 feet back.limit line is placed where you can’t see the cross traffic, that’s not where limit lines are.
But that's what DOES happen. I can think of a dozen stops near me with limit lines that are WAY too far back to give good visibility. So you stop (or at least come vert close to it) and creep up carefully until you can see. As for "what is the point of stopping", well, welcome to the world of bureaucrats.Creeping is why the guy got the ticket. You’re supposed to stop where you can see the intersection. If you stop where you can’t see the intersection and then creep what’s the point of stopping? You might as well just do a “California stop”
Not even sure what this means. Stopping at a limit line accomplishes several important functions, even if the limit line does not afford good visibility.As for "what is the point of stopping", well, welcome to the world of bureaucrats.
There is a difference between “are we there?” and “can we get there?”.Just have to squint, a lot.
Obviously this approach is not going to work with current vehicles.
Frankly unless there are clear pedestrian lines I would always stop where I have the visibility to decide when to go. I never paid much attention to lines it's always about being able to see safely. FSD just has to stop/creep a little further to see adequately. (B-pillar) And as I posted earlier at many Stop sign intersections where I live there are no lines anyway. I typically never paid any attention to the actual placement of the Stop sign. Just go right up to the creep line, stop then decide when to go. That's what FSD should go rather then taking over 10 seconds sometimes to get to the creep limit (Grandma approach).Not even sure what this means. Stopping at a limit line accomplishes several important functions, even if the limit line does not afford good visibility.
And moving that limit line forward to give better visibility is contrary to those functions.
When my daughter went to driving school to get her permit at 16 years of age, there was a parent day where a parent had to attend. We were told us old people did not know how to drive and need to listen to how we would show our child to be able to drive the proper way.Creeping is why the guy got the ticket. You’re supposed to stop where you can see the intersection. If you stop where you can’t see the intersection and then creep what’s the point of stopping? You might as well just do a “California stop”
Yes, almost… I got 2024.3.20 yesterday, installed, and then download of 2024.3.25 started mid-day. Release notes for .25 did not show Autopark (glad I checked…). Waited until later in the evening for downloads, but update disappeared before reaching 100%. Car showed up to date this morning, so almost had 12.3.6, not sure what happened.TeslaFi shows a bump of around 500 more vehicles pending 2024.3.25 primarily adding S/X. Anybody with vertical screen newly getting 12.3.6? Do the release notes include Autopark? Yesterday's rollout only went to about 50 legacy S/X.
I seem to read reports of people having more issues with autopark in parking garages. I think they probably just need more parking garage training data. People parking outside for the most part seem to have good success.First 2 attempts were great.
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Last attempt was not so great. I had the hit the brakes.
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I complain because when there is *not* traffic, it seems to often go well under (17 in a 25) or well over (40 in a 30) the posted limit, with no seeming rhyme or reason.
- I still don't get why people complain so much about the Auto Max setting. Generally, it keeps up with traffic; even in those cases where it runs slower than those in front, it does catch up. I guess this is what's being called "Rubber Banding". Thing is, though: Say one is on auto max and falls a bit behind the traffic in front. We're not talking hundreds of yards here, we're talking, maybe, a maximum of 50 or so. Having said that, say that said line of traffic comes up to a traffic light. If the FSDS-running car was that far back, one would expect all sorts of cars to pull out in front of one and/or the people behind one to come up and tail gate. Neither happens. In the meantime, the actual speed hovers a bit lower and somewhat higher (say, 35-40 in a 30 mph zone), with or without other cars to follow. I think I get it: FSDS doesn't drive like particular users, and said users want the car to drive like them. If it doesn't match up... then it's Junk City. On the other hand, other drivers around me seem to act like the car's doing pretty much like other traffic and aren't getting fashed as a result, something that wasn't true on anything pre-12.x.
I have noticed that FSD usually stop at the "Stop" sign location. I think that's the programmed check location. Usually, on locations where I see the Stop sign location is far ahead of the stop line, I just tap the accelerator a bit to move the car closer to the stop line.The above linked case makes me so happy. Thanks. The appeals court called out all the things I have mentioned as potential dangers of the stopping behavior.
The problem with FSD is that on occasion, it can conduct its "NHTSA stop" very far back from the stop line. It stops at a position where it could not possibly see the intersection properly, and it makes it difficult for other road users to assess right of way. This has happened to me, in real life, at four-way stops, in La Jolla Cove. It stopped so far back from the line that people had no idea whether I had stopped.
After FSD makes the NHTSA stop, there is no guarantee (particularly at 4-way stops) that it will make another stop. It often creeps, or simply goes, if it decides it has right of way.
So it's a problem, on occasion. I have no idea whether this issue has been addressed to any degree in 12.3.6. I doubt it.
Again, it doesn't happen all the time - it happens sometimes. But it's not "outlier" type behavior - it happens too often. I have no idea what the factors are that cause it. I feel like four-way stops (especially without marked crosswalks) make it more likely, but I'm not sure about that.
The solution is to press the accelerator to prevent the stop, until the car gets to the right point, and then let it do the stop.
The defendant stopped approximately here (by his own admission), and received a ticket which was upheld on appeal. It's a remarkably similar position to those I have posted: (Note that this is about 10 feet from the crosswalk.)
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Yes. You can see from my picture that it was clearly closer to 8 feet. And sometimes, on occasion, it can be a bit more. Those are the cases I am concerned about. I want the car to stop in a spot that is safe, respectful of pedestrians in the crosswalk, allows visibility, and establishes right of way. It's really not that hard. Reading the case above, they mention many of the relevant considerations.
I think stopping very far back is neither legal nor appropriate.
Well...sometimes they are. I think because they try to make sure there's space for an unmarked crosswalk. But yes, not really too relevant here. If the line's there, you have to stop at it, then creep. Visibility which may be limited at the limit line is going to be even worse if you stop another 8 feet back.
Definitely should be faster.That's what FSD should go rather then taking over 10 seconds sometimes to get to the creep limit (Grandma approach).
I have noticed that FSD usually stop at the "Stop" sign location. I think that's the programmed check location.
Have you tried a reboot? Something is confused about the enabled features (and your might want to let a service tech look at the car too if one is available).So strange autopilot behavior now that my trial FSD expired.
Autopilot refuses to work on freeways, basically any place that 12.3 stack wasn't in use.
I tried rebooting using the two scroll wheels no change.
BUT autopilot on city streets, my car now turns on its blinker changes lanes and makes turns, based on my navigation destination.
It's really weird, the minimal lane changes option and the 3 modes (assertive and whatever), is gone, only thing i have now is the normal autopilot distance control.
My car is acting like it ONLY wants autopilot to function on 12.3 stack lol, I say 12.3 because autopilot ONLY works on city streets and NOT freeways but it feels dumber than 12.3 maybe its using 11.x?
When I try to enable autopilot on freeways it just makes the loud beep and pops up with the code relating to something about narrow lanes.
My screen also shows a weird visualization of a freeway off ramp V and I'm driving straight towards it over and over while cars drive around me lol.
Visualization goes back to normal when i exit the freeway.