Anybody have direct experience with Amber Electricity?

[Jules22]

Interesting thread, I’ve learned a lot looking through some of the previous posts. I’m in VIC, 16kW solar system with Powerwall2 and a Model Y. Currently on a flat rate plan which equates to 18c/kWh. I’m at a crossroads now, looking at all these plans and now Amber. Right now, with winter looming in VIC my flat rate is good and bad, most days I can get all most of the PW2 charged, but there are days when I can’t and we need to run the heaters more. In that case, the 18c/kWh isn’t bad, but at this rate the ROI on the PW2 is extremely long.

I don’t need to charge the car often and have a static load of around 500W (fridges, cameras, switches, APs, etc).

Based on that, do I try this Amber Smart Shift out? Or perhaps look to some time of EV plan with a lower overnight rate of 8c/kWh and try to sneakily charge my PW2 instead of the car?

Winter is maybe not the best time to try, but there is no contact so if you try it and don't like it you can get out with no issues.

I was on a 10c tariff overnight which I used to use to top my battery up so never paid more than 10c, I'm MUCH better off on Amber. Each state is different though so worth while doing some research and checking the prices over a few days to see if it works for you.

From what I hear VIC gets more negative tariffs in summer which is great for charging vehicles and batteries. You've also got the arbitrage opportunities buying low during the day and selling at night which is where I make most of my profits.

I've got a little video I put together to show how it all works, it's posted earlier in this thread if you haven't seen it.

 

[singlespeed]

Winter is maybe not the best time to try, but there is no contact so if you try it and don't like it you can get out with no issues.

I was on a 10c tariff overnight which I used to use to top my battery up so never paid more than 10c, I'm MUCH better off on Amber. Each state is different though so worth while doing some research and checking the prices over a few days to see if it works for you.

From what I hear VIC gets more negative tariffs in summer which is great for charging vehicles and batteries. You've also got the arbitrage opportunities buying low during the day and selling at night which is where I make most of my profits.

I've got a little video I put together to show how it all works, it's posted earlier in this thread if you haven't seen it.

Thanks, I have watched the video which has increased my interest in Amber. What if anything does the Tesla app (PW2 page) do or look like once the PW is onboarded to Amber’s VPP? Is there any remaining control there?

 

[Jules22]

Thanks, I have watched the video which has increased my interest in Amber. What if anything does the Tesla app (PW2 page) do or look like once the PW is onboarded to Amber’s VPP? Is there any remaining control there?

No real change you just set it to self powered so that it's not trying to do anything. Still have all the visualisations and data available there.

 

[Jules22]

BTW for those interested, I've been alpha testing the Amber EV integration for the past couple of weeks.

It's pretty basic at the moment just the ability to set price/ time triggers but looks like there's some really cool features coming in the next week or so.

1. Identify when your EV’s Charge Level is low (according to your own definition of low) and relax our price thresholds so that you charge more.
2. Tighten those price thresholds when your EV’s Charge Level is higher (and you’re more comfortable) so that we can be more selective about when you charge.
3. Charge only from excess solar when the grid price is higher than those thresholds.
4. Charge according to a schedule while maintaining a price limit.

They are also looking to add in

Charging Plan

We’ll give testers a plan for the near-future involving how much charge we plan to add by a certain time and the approximate cost of that charge.

The aim of this is to enable testers to evaluate *how effectively* their preferences *will give* them the charge they want at a cost they’re happy with.

### Charging History

We’ll give testers a daily summary of how they charged and the impact that it had on their EV’s Charge Level and on their next bill.

The aim of this is to enable testers to evaluate *how effectively* their preferences *gave* them the charge they wanted at a cost they’re happy with.

 

[Vostok]

So looks like they've just introduced "Advanced Price Forecasts" which are supposed to give a better idea of potential prices in combination with the AEMO forecast.

Hmm… I can’t see that in my App, and I’ve updated to the latest iOS version (6.2.0).

 

[Vostok]

What if anything does the Tesla app (PW2 page) do or look like once the PW is onboarded to Amber’s VPP? Is there any remaining control there?

It looks exactly the same. As @Jules22 motioned, you must set your PW2 to be in Self-Consumption mode, and not TBC.

You can change the minimum reserve level, although Amber request that if you do that, to “synchronize” it with the Amber App by setting the same level there.

I still have “Storm Watch” turned on in my PW2 settings, I haven’t seen Amber say anything about that.

You can still use Tesla Charge on Solar, because it’s default mode of operation is to preserve PW2 charge (i.e. never draw down on the battery), meaning it’s not trying to control your PW2 which otherwise might conflict with what Amber is trying to do.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

Currently on a flat rate plan which equates to 18c/kWh

Who with? Which distributor?

Unless you export more than you import, you are unlikely to win with Amber in winter in VIC. Current range of 24 hour import prices in Powercor VIC are from 34c to 98c.

 

[singlespeed]

It looks exactly the same. As @Jules22 motioned, you must set your PW2 to be in Self-Consumption mode, and not TBC.

You can change the minimum reserve level, although Amber request that if you do that, to “synchronize” it with the Amber App by setting the same level there.

I still have “Storm Watch” turned on in my PW2 settings, I haven’t seen Amber say anything about that.

You can still use Tesla Charge on Solar, because it’s default mode of operation is to preserve PW2 charge (i.e. never draw down on the battery), meaning it’s not trying to control your PW2 which otherwise might conflict with what Amber is trying to do.

When you say use Tesla Charge on Solar… what do you mean exactly? My Powerwall settings page has no “EV charging” options and my car (MYP) doesn’t show any options for solar charging. I’m still using ChargeHQ which is at odds with the PW2 charging a bit. My charger is the newer Tesla WC.

Maybe I’m missing a setting somewhere to have EV Charging or Charge on Solar capabilities.

 

[Vostok]

When you say use Tesla Charge on Solar… what do you mean exactly? My Powerwall settings page has no “EV charging” options and my car (MYP) doesn’t show any options for solar charging. I’m still using ChargeHQ which is at odds with the PW2 charging a bit. My charger is the newer Tesla WC.

I suggest you read this:

https://www.tesla.com/en_au/support/tesla-app/charge-on-solar

And probably this TMC thread:

Charge On Solar Australia

TheDriven says Tesla are enabling Charge-On-Solar (for those with a Powerwall) in Australia tomorrow: https://thedriven.io/2024/02/22/tesla-to-launch-its-ev-charge-on-solar-powerwall-product-in-australia-on-friday/

teslamotorsclub.com

To use Charge on Solar, you must first pair your phone with your Powerwall, then the CoS controls should appear in your vehicle charging settings. You don’t need the latest Tesla HPWC, I have a 2019 one and it works fine.

You also need to have minimum software levels on both your PW2 and Tesla vehicle (explained in the Tesla support article), which should be the case unless you are deliberately not installing the latest versions.

I don’t use ChargeHQ but you’d probably need to deactivate that if you want to use Tesla CoS, otherwise they’d probably be fighting each other.

 

[Vostok]

And I should have added that my main beef with Tesla CoS is that it prioritises charging the car over filling your PW2. So if you leave CoS on all the time, your car will eventually fill up to the target charge level you set (possibly over multiple days depending on how big your solar array is) before your PW2 will be filled.

To me, that is arse-about, so I wait until my PW2 is full, then manually turn CoS on. There should be a toggle in the settings to either prioritise car charging, or prioritise PW2 charging. But there isn’t (yet?).

The other thing is CoS keeps your car awake. All. The. Time. Even at night, it seems. So some of the benefit is lost via higher battery drain. The App could be way smarter than that, but until it is, I also manually turn CoS off when it’s done for the day.

Further discussion on this should move over to the CoS thread.

 

[singlespeed]

And I should have added that my main beef with Tesla CoS is that it prioritises charging the car over filling your PW2. So if you leave CoS on all the time, your car will eventually fill up to the target charge level you set (possibly over multiple days depending on how big your solar array is) before your PW2 will be filled.

To me, that is arse-about, so I wait until my PW2 is full, then manually turn CoS on. There should be a toggle in the settings to either prioritise car charging, or prioritise PW2 charging. But there isn’t (yet?).

The other thing is CoS keeps your car awake. All. The. Time. Even at night, it seems. So some of the benefit is lost via higher battery drain. The App could be way smarter than that, but until it is, I also manually turn CoS off when it’s done for the day.

Further discussion on this should move over to the CoS thread.

“Further discussion on this should move over to the CoS thread.”

Agree, moved it over there. Back to Amber.

I’ve been watching a lot of videos, I think given my current 18c/kWh flat rate I’ll hold off on Amber and revisit in the summer when the solar system is generating >1mWh/month. For now, it’s a delicate balance between the PW2 and the car plus keeping the house warm for 2x people WFH 5x days per week.

 

[singlespeed]

Who with? Which distributor?

Unless you export more than you import, you are unlikely to win with Amber in winter in VIC. Current range of 24 hour import prices in Powercor VIC are from 34c to 98c.

I am with CovaU (United Energy). I was on a TOU 22c and 34c off/on peak prices but changed to a flat rate of 26c/kWh. I know having a battery common sense says TOU is better, but I have a static load of 3-400W 24x7 and a family that doesn’t like to conform to the energy-saving mindset, especially 3-9PM.

The battery is great, but given there is a whopping 2c/kWh difference after the 27% discount between my old off-peak rate and my flat rate it doesn’t make sense to go the TOU route. This setup is perfect for winter in VIC, let the battery charge as much as possible during the day and use it up then just fall back to the cost effective flat rate.

In summer, I might reconsider, but then again, with so much solar (>1mWh per month) and less energy demands (cooling in summer is used far less than heating in winter) it still might not be attractive to use a TOU. I don’t drive or charge my EV enough to care, only drove 4000km in 12 months.

In summary, a difference of $2 every 100kWh was not enough to deal with the TOU.

 

[Vostok]

In summary, a difference of $2 every 100kWh was not enough to deal with the TOU.

Everyone’s usage patterns are different so there are scenarios where a fixed tariff makes sense.

It wouldn’t for me, because with solar and a battery, I managed to shift 95% of my grid electricity use outside of peak hours, and about 75% to offpeak hours. So cost was minimised for me by finding the plan with the cheapest offpeak rate. A fixed tariff would be considerably worse for me.

The Amber experiment might turn out to be a bit disastrous for me, but time will tell. It could be considerably worse for me in winter, but potentially in spring and summer I could occasionally get negative bills and come out better overall

 

[Skurfer]

Could you just change out to a normal power plan over winter then rejoin amber in the spring/summer?

 

[Jules22]

Could you just change out to a normal power plan over winter then rejoin amber in the spring/summer?

Is possible, but would be a pain in the ass, there's no contracts or joining fees, so nothing stopping you.

That said this winter being my first with Amber, I'm doing VERY well. Got a couple of days where I earned over $600 profit, couple of 10-25 profit days and the last few days have been $3-4 profit per day, so winter can still present some really good arbitrage opportunities even when there is little solar.

 

[Vostok]

That said this winter being my first with Amber, I'm doing VERY well. Got a couple of days where I earned over $600 profit, couple of 10-25 profit days and the last few days have been $3-4 profit per day, so winter can still present some really good arbitrage opportunities even when there is little solar.

I’m pretty sure I will never see anything like that. My solar array is simply not big enough (and it can’t go any bigger as my entire roof is covered) so my daytime exports are limited. Or zero when I’m using Tesla CoS to charge my Model 3.

Solar export rates on Amber generally look quite attractive particularly during shoulder periods, so I can see that someone with a massively oversized or east-west array would do very well from them almost every single day. That’s primarily what I’m missing.

Battery arbitrage can be very lucrative, but it is also very limited. My PW2 is now under 10 kWh capacity, so even if the house is using little power (say 1 kW - difficult to do in winter) and fully charged by the evening peak, then exporting at 4 kW will last only 2 hours. And then you are completely exposed to paying elevated wholesale prices for the rest of the night (> 60c/kWh) once the battery is fully discharged. That happened to me twice this week. One day I came out in front (-$6.50) but the second time was my most expensive day ever ($10.50).

I’ve also noticed that prices in NSW overnight never seem to go very low - never below 21c/kWh so far - which is when we use most electricity (charging the LEAF). During the day, the lowest actual price so far (as opposed to forecasted) has been 15c/kWh.

I’m not complaining although it probably reads like I am but this is the sort of stuff potential customers need to have their eyes open about. Despite my battery, my setup with a small solar array is probably not ideal for Amber so it will be interesting to see how it goes over the full range of seasons.

 

[Jules22]

I’m pretty sure I will never see anything like that. My solar array is simply not big enough (and it can’t go any bigger as my entire roof is covered) so my daytime exports are limited. Or zero when I’m using Tesla CoS to charge my Model 3.

Solar export rates on Amber generally look quite attractive particularly during shoulder periods, so I can see that someone with a massively oversized or east-west array would do very well from them almost every single day. That’s primarily what I’m missing.

Battery arbitrage can be very lucrative, but it is also very limited. My PW2 is now under 10 kWh capacity, so even if the house is using little power (say 1 kW - difficult to do in winter) and fully charged by the evening peak, then exporting at 4 kW will last only 2 hours. And then you are completely exposed to paying elevated wholesale prices for the rest of the night (> 60c/kWh) once the battery is fully discharged. That happened to me twice this week. One day I came out in front (-$6.50) but the second time was my most expensive day ever ($10.50).

I’ve also noticed that prices in NSW overnight never seem to go very low - never below 21c/kWh so far - which is when we use most electricity (charging the LEAF). During the day, the lowest actual price so far (as opposed to forecasted) has been 15c/kWh.

I’m not complaining although it probably reads like I am but this is the sort of stuff potential customers need to have their eyes open about. Despite my battery, my setup with a small solar array is probably not ideal for Amber so it will be interesting to see how it goes over the full range of seasons.

Yeah, the solar here isn't that big either, about 8KW all up, the main difference is I'm running 2x PW2's which are both still about 12KW capacity.

In summer I rarely draw any power in, the solar is enough to charge me back up, but in winter time it's all pure arbitrage. I'm looking to charge up as close to 10c/kWh if there's anything 30c+ coming up, as you've seen quite often the spikes are higher than that. Winter time also generally gives you two opportunities a day, you get a spike of 30c+ in the morning and then a bigger one in the evening. Though the overnight prices have been a little high the past few days so I haven't been getting anything in the morning.

I generally always keep a 25-30% buffer though, so as you mention I'm not drawing from the grid overnight. The Amber algo does all this by itself usually and generally knows to keep enough for me to last the night, but sometimes I do jump in and do it manually if I see a good opportunity and it hasn't acted on it yet.

 

[Vostok]

The Amber algo does all this by itself usually and generally knows to keep enough for me to last the night, but sometimes I do jump in and do it manually if I see a good opportunity and it hasn't acted on it yet.

I have put my faith in SmartCharge and have not intervened yet, but I think I might need to occasionally. In particular, the day I actually made money, Amber waited way too long before charging my battery, and so when it did charge, it did it at the pre-spike price which was over 50c/kWh by that stage. If it wasn’t for the price spiking at over $8/kWh, I would have been toast.

As I get more used to this, I’ll use the “Control My Battery” feature to step in occasionally when I have a feeling Amber is getting it wrong. I should have done it on Monday but didn’t have the confidence. Also I think you said the algo takes about a month to learn your production/consumption profiles, so that’s probably part of the issue.

 

[Jules22]

Also I think you said the algo takes about a month to learn your production/consumption profiles, so that’s probably part of the issue.

Yeah, definitely, I was pretty much over-riding it the whole first month. I've noticed with the new prediction ranges it's been much better as well, did your app update to show those yet?

 

[Vostok]

Yes I now see the Advanced Price Forecasts.