Could TESLA use Starlink Satellites for more Precise Navigation

[Daniel in SD]

Starlink ground stations being destroyed would have no impact on Starlink being used as GPS since it only relies on a time signal being sent down which is already determined on the satellite. In addition V2 of starlink satellites need significantly less ground stations as they will communicate satellite to satellite via laser communications and don't necessarily need a ground station in country.

Whenever I read about smart bombs generally they are referred to as GPS guided. There may be million dollar cruise missiles with inertial guidance, but other less expensive bombs rely on GPS.

The current GPS signal can be spoofed as Iran is reported to have done to bring down a US drone like 10 years ago. No doubt starlink with decades newer technology would have the ability to create a more spoof proof signal that is either encrypted or using some other technology to help with that situation.

As stated by you the Satellites are closer to the ground and would most likely have a stronger signal etc. The current GPS accuracy is 16 feet from what I read, that is close, but would imagine situations where if that number was lower it could be beneficial.

I’d be curious what the accuracy of various weapons systems are with and without gps. Relying on gps seems sketchy as it’s not that hard to jam.

How would the starlink satellites know where they are without ground stations?

 

[CapsEngineer]

How would the starlink satellites know where they are without ground stations?

Satellites use a combination of star trackers, earth trackers, and GPS to know where they are. In the case of Starlink, they use this information to search for the next ground station.

Because ground communications can be intermittent, all satellites have to be able to continue to operate without ground contacts for some period of time.

 

[Akikiki]

I’d be curious what the accuracy of various weapons systems are with and without gps. Relying on gps seems sketchy as it’s not that hard to jam.

Probably like going to Mickey-D's and getting change from a $20 bill after ordering a hamburger. The young'um's can't count change back to ya without the fancy register that tells them how many quarters, dimes and nickels to return.

 

[DrDabbles]

How would the starlink satellites know where they are without ground stations?

Their satellites pre-calculate their position. It's also how they [will] calculate their routing topology for inter-satellite communication.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Their satellites pre-calculate their position. It's also how they [will] calculate their routing topology for inter-satellite communication.

Starlink lost a bunch of satellites due to increased air resistance caused by a geomagnetic storm. It sounds like they’re too low to be predictable for very long without ground station references.

 

[DrDabbles]

Starlink lost a bunch of satellites due to increased air resistance caused by a geomagnetic storm. It sounds like they’re too low to be predictable for very long without ground station references.

Well, to your point earlier, they receive and send regular updates via the ground links. I can't talk much about what else I know, because it's not public information. But things are pretty predictable under normal conditions, and SpaceX is able to update information trivially. The bigger thing, IMO, is calculating and sending full routing topologies around the constellation in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[KArnold]

Starlink lost a bunch of satellites due to increased air resistance caused by a geomagnetic storm

Starlink uses a multistage approach. They first go to low earth orbit for functional evaluation. Once everything is working they go to a much higher orbit and eliminate this risk. I believe they do it those way to minimize space junk - if nonfunctional just let it crash and burn. They did lose 40 of these this year and all were in that initial, low-earth stage caused by the geomagnetic storms you mentioned. Just had timing.

Perhaps other than deployment time this is not particularly pertinent to the OP.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Just released, highly relevant to this thread:

Starlink for RVs aka Starlink In-Motion

There are quite a few Tech website articles to go with the press release for this, most of those call it Starlink In-Motion. However, the link above goes direct to the Starlink website.

This uses a new beam-steering antenna, at least I think it must be because it doesn't have to be physically pointed to maintain connection. They already had something similar for marine use, but this new RV setup is even smaller.

This is getting close to something that could be used on a car, but they're not marketing it for that.

 

[DrDabbles]

This is getting close to something that could be used on a car, but they're not marketing it for that.

It's a larger square than the unit you get for your house. The real difference is it doesn't have the mounting bar in the back of it, or the motors that drive on it. I wouldn't say this is getting close to something you could use on a normal car, given the fact it's 20x23 inches. The average power also increases by 2-3x on the RV unit, which is insane.

 

[JHCCAZ]

It's a larger square than the unit you get for your house. The real difference is it doesn't have the mounting bar in the back of it, or the motors that drive on it. I wouldn't say this is getting close to something you could use on a normal car, given the fact it's 20x23 inches. The average power also increases by 2-3x on the RV unit, which is insane.

Well I'm personally not pining for a Starlink setup in my Tesla. But for those who might be interested because of cell coverage issues:

Size: the 20x23 in. you quoted is not small, but also not incompatible with an automobile. Glomming it onto the glass roof of a Tesla doesn't sound too attractive, but a purposeful redesign, integrating elements into the roof, or under a fiberglass frunk lid, doesn't seem like any kind of showstopper. I believe that one of the design problems with MIMO arrays is the coupling of closely mounted elements, so it may actually be advantageous to consider a more widely distributed array integrated into the body design. It isn't my field so feel free to contradict based on antenna physics.

Power: at about 150W, which is 2x to 3x the home Starlink receiver, this would consume 1kWh of pack charge, i.e. less than 1.5% of typical Tesla pack capacity, i.e. less than 5 miles of range, over 6 to 7 hours of operation. While most users wouldn't be driving that much per day, they might well be needing internet connectivity for most of the day. Full 24-hour operation would take less than 20 miles off the range assuming no source of EV charging is available during that entire day. Again this is hardly a crisis, in exchange for full independence from mobile data coverage. Again these are very rough numbers, but not skewed in favor of the argument.

I think the bigger problem would be the reliability when driving in different conditions. Almost certainly, the Srarlink setup would be operated in conjunction with a 4/5G radio, as the coverage dropouts are somewhat complementary. I don't know if the present RV product is seamlessly integrated that way but it probably should be. Starlink enthusiasts here here would know more about the plans for cell-provider partnering as the network expands.

If it were easy, Starlink + Tesla would already have it packaged. But the satellite network is very much incomplete and there's time for further development, with smaller numbers of critical-need customers that represent the current served market.