Porsche Mission E

[rwjr44]

Beautiful car but too many dollars for my wallet.

 

[afadeev]

Why you want to turn the traction control fully OFF? The only reason you want to turn it off is the mechnical traction control could not perform in more challenging situations.

Because you can only explore car's handling limits, and expand your own driving ability limits, by driving the car with traction control (TC) OFF. Preferably in a controlled environment (e.g. on track, autoX course, etc).

I do realize that an average American driver has no clue what that means.
EV drivers are, on average, even less likely to be performance drivers. Nevertheless, that's how it is.

EV has electronically controlled directly power distribution you can design it to do whatever you want if you're good at it. Even Randy Pobst liked the newly tuned traction control in Model 3 performance after he tracked with it

Correction - he liked Track Mode MORE then the alternative, which was the over-intrusive stock Tesla TC.
You can disable TC by unplugging ABS sensors from the wheels, but that's clumsy and inconvenient.

Tesla AWD (lets not over-generalize about all EVs) can only modulate torque to wheels on the same axle by applying brakes to the spinning wheel. That's a cheap shortcut for a proper diff than can actually transfer torque from the low traction to the max traction side of the axle. Incidentally, that's what Taycan is doing.

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[CarlK]

Beautiful car but too many dollars for my wallet.

As a long time former Porsche owner I still occasionally go to the Porsche forum. The reaction there about this is something like this:
"Yep, sure enough, according to Automobile magazine from a “reliable source” the base 2WD Taycan will “start in the low $90s” despite the initial promise of a $75k starting price. When Tesla promised a $35k M3 then failed to deliver immediately (but ultimately did deliver) the haters cried and pitched a fit and called Elon Musk a liar.
So come on haters! We’ve really been lied to this time as there will never be a $75,000 Taycan! Duped again! Doh!"

Anyone here still interested in purchasing the base $90K or top of line $140K Taycan please show your hand. Don't worry it's your money no one will ridicule you for that.

 

[seattlite2004]

As a long time former Porsche owner I still occasionally go to the Porsche forum. The reaction there about this is something like this:
"Yep, sure enough, according to Automobile magazine from a “reliable source” the base 2WD Taycan will “start in the low $90s” despite the initial promise of a $75k starting price. When Tesla promised a $35k M3 then failed to deliver immediately (but ultimately did deliver) the haters cried and pitched a fit and called Elon Musk a liar.
So come on haters! We’ve really been lied to this time as there will never be a $75,000 Taycan! Duped again! Doh!"

Anyone here still interested in purchasing the base $90K or top of line $140K Taycan please show your hand. Don't worry it's your money no one will ridicule you for that.

Just gonna use TSLA profits to fund .

 

[CarlK]

Because you can only explore car's handling limits, and expand your own driving ability limits, by driving the car with traction control (TC) OFF. Preferably in a controlled environment (e.g. on track, autoX course, etc).

I do realize that an average American driver has no clue what that means.
EV drivers are, on average, even less likely to be performance drivers. Nevertheless, that's how it is.

I would never want to explore car's "handling limit". It suits me just fine if it's out of reach especially on a track. That comment is pretty amateurish. You really want to drive a "widowmaker' to have fun? I know Porsche no longer makes widowmakers but that explore handling limit comment just reminded me how some people at those times would make a deficiency into a desirable thing until they knew better.

One thing you probably still don't understand is there is nothing so special about tracktion control turned off. Every car's chassis is still tuned to certain driving needs and they are always just the best compromise. Serious drivers would still do their own mods. The ability to have electronically controled and adjusted traction control is the next best thing to supspension mods if not the best thing.

Correction - he liked Track Mode MORE then the alternative, which was the over-intrusive stock Tesla TC.
You can disable TC by unplugging ABS sensors from the wheels, but that's clumsy and inconvenient.

Tesla AWD (lets not over-generalize about all EVs) can only modulate torque to wheels on the same axle by applying brakes to the spinning wheel. That's a cheap shortcut for a proper diff than can actually transfer torque from the low traction to the max traction side of the axle. Incidentally, that's what Taycan is doing.

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No he liked the track mode because it enalbed him to get a track time than betters that of BMW M3. Tesla can tune the track mode to get whatever is the best for the performance including anything you mentioned here. I'm pretty sure there will be a lot more improvements in the future from Tesla. BTW using differential to transfer torque is not necessarily a desirable thing to do. It has a long reaction time and defeat the purpose of have the fast feedback loop of the electornic control system. I also have to think that you're arguing for the argument's sake. Do you like to turn off the traction control or not?

 

[CarlK]

Just gonna use TSLA profits to fund .

Good for you. Are you going to buy the $140K model which I believe will be the first to become available? I will just wait for my Roadster. With Tesla's performance and tech, including AP/FSD, I see no point of buying a Porsche anymore at this point. By that time I'm pretty sure my TSLA will worth a lot more too.

 

[seattlite2004]

Good for you. Are you going to buy the $140K model which I believe will be the first to become available? I will just wait for my Roadster. With Tesla's performance and tech, including AP/FSD, I see no point of buying a Porsche anymore at this point. By that time I'm pretty sure my TSLA will worth a lot more too.

I'll wait for the 2nd model year...get the bugs worked out and all that. I'd like to get the 4S or GTS equivalent. But, we'll see what comes on the C2 equivalent and the options package on the 4S/GTS equivalent. For me...I still need to scratch that P-Car itch.

 

[afadeev]

Good for you. Are you going to buy the $140K model which I believe will be the first to become available? I will just wait for my Roadster.

$140K price tag will make Taycan a juicy status symbol, which was the primary motivation behind more than 50% of the Model S buyers who I drive them today.
Many of those folk are distraught that Model 3 has "devalued" their Tesla status symbol, and will gladly jump into Taycan or similarly priced alternatives!

With Tesla's performance and tech, including AP/FSD, I see no point of buying a Porsche anymore at this point.

You've got FSD?
Tells us more about how well it works!

 

[CarlK]

For me...I still need to scratch that P-Car itch.

I know but I can already see in a few years people will not see P cars the way they used to. Does anyone still think Blackberry is a must have? Porsche did have a pretty nice run though.

$140K price tag will make Taycan a juicy status symbol, which was the primary motivation behind more than 50% of the Model S purchases by those who I drive them.
Many of those folk are destraught that Model 3 has "devalued" their Tesla status symbol, and will gladly jump to Taycan and similar!

You're right about it for most status cars. Not so much for Tesla though. Many people bought the Model S after one test drive. There was just nothing like it they've ever driven.

I have absolutely no desire to pay (much) more and get (much) less for a car and be looked at as a sucker. I'd just buy a Model 3 if I'm that value conscious. However as sucker who is looking for the ultimate status I will still buy the roadster. No honestly I just want to drive that sucker.

You've got FSD?
Tells us more about how well it works!

It will come and it will be the new status symbol. I in @seattlite2004's car: How much you have paid and you still need to drive it everytime?

 

[wdolson]

Because you can only explore car's handling limits, and expand your own driving ability limits, by driving the car with traction control (TC) OFF. Preferably in a controlled environment (e.g. on track, autoX course, etc).

I do realize that an average American driver has no clue what that means.
EV drivers are, on average, even less likely to be performance drivers. Nevertheless, that's how it is.

I think Tesla has drawn in a number of performance fans with the Roadster and Performance models. Performance drivers are a fairly small minority of all drivers out there. There are people who owned a sports car at some point in their life, usually when young or their mid-life crisis car, but very few people drive performance cars with any regularity.

In 2018 US car sales the Ford Mustang was the best selling sports car in the US with 75K sold and it ranked 21st, 10 slots below the Model 3. Most people wouldn't consider the Mustang a sports car. Most versions are just "sporty" with lackluster performance. The large engine versions sell in small numbers.

On this forum I've crossed paths with more performance car fans than I have in the real world.

Though I'm not a performance car enthusiast. My humble S90D has 2.5X more horsepower than my last car. I can't imagine what I'd do with a Performance Model S.

 

[FlatSix911]

One thing you probably still don't understand is there is nothing so special about tracktion control turned off. Every car's chassis is still tuned to certain driving needs and they are always just the best compromise. Serious drivers would still do their own mods. The ability to have electronically controled and adjusted traction control is the next best thing to supspension mods if not the best thing.

No he liked the track mode because it enalbed him to get a track time than betters that of BMW M3. Tesla can tune the track mode to get whatever is the best for the performance including anything you mentioned here. I'm pretty sure there will be a lot more improvements in the future from Tesla. BTW using differential to transfer torque is not necessarily a desirable thing to do. It has a long reaction time and defeat the purpose of have the fast feedback loop of the electornic control system. I also have to think that you're arguing for the argument's sake. Do you like to turn off the traction control or not?

More nonsense... this post is incomprehensible. Please take a track day and a spelling class for good measure.

 

[FlatSix911]

I'll wait for the 2nd model year...get the bugs worked out and all that. I'd like to get the 4S or GTS equivalent. But, we'll see what comes on the C2 equivalent and the options package on the 4S/GTS equivalent. For me...I still need to scratch that P-Car itch.

The second model year is always a good idea.
Regarding the P-Car itch... I have a small collection and they all stay on their 12V chargers while the Telsa gets all the attention.
PCA track days are the only exercise they get... Porsche has become the weekend track toy. Watch for Tesla/ReFuel at Laguna Seca next month!

 

[seattlite2004]

Wonder if that spoiler will be stickered on at the factory or at the dealerships a few months after delivery

 

[Valore]

Wonder if that spoiler will be stickered on at the factory or at the dealerships a few months after delivery

This is an electrically extentable spoiler like most Porsche cars have (911, Cayman, Boxster, Panamera).

 

[seattlite2004]

This is an electrically extentable spoiler like most Porsche cars have (911, Cayman, Boxster, Panamera).

Yep...I know

 

[Valore]

View attachment 407836
Damn, those brakes!

 

[CarlK]

More nonsense... this post is incomprehensible. Please take a track day and a spelling class for good measure.

OK in simpler english perhaps you should take a Model 3 to the track yourself to find out. Many did just that. The conclusion has pretty much univerally been it will beat any non-track oriented Porsche (non-GT 911 or Cayman) on the track.

Here is one from someone on the Tesla forum who is also a long time Porsche owner and track instructor.

Big track review of Track Mode | Tesla

 

[afadeev]

I would never want to explore car's "handling limit". It suits me just fine if it's out of reach especially on a track.

It's all fun and good that you choose to exercise your preference of how you like to drive your car: with TC ON at all times.
Nothing wrong with that.
I respect your right to do so, but in return, please don't belittle the preference of those who want and are capable of, and enjoy driving their cars with TC OFF.

You really want to drive a "widowmaker' to have fun? I know Porsche no longer makes widowmakers but that explore handling limit comment just reminded me how some people at those times would make a deficiency into a desirable thing until they knew better.

I have no idea what you are referring to as "widowmaker", but suspect that judgmental comment was not grounded in experience of track driving, or owning a Porsche (or any other sports car).

BTW using differential to transfer torque is not necessarily a desirable thing to do. It has a long reaction time and defeat the purpose of have the fast feedback loop of the electornic control system.

A proper (Torsen) diff allows full application of torque to wheels that are rotating at different speeds. You can not achieve that electronic control, unless you have 1 electric motor per wheel, which is not the case with Tesla (is the case with a few super-cars). Without a differential, the only way to control traction across an axles is to apply brakes to the traction-deficient (spinning) wheel, allowing the non-spinning wheel to not loose torque.
Torsen - Wikipedia

Speed of electronic feedback is irrelevant.
Ability to dynamically distribute torque is, and that's what a differential does.
It is a highly desirable (but not cheap) capability.

I also have to think that you're arguing for the argument's sake. Do you like to turn off the traction control or not?

Yes, I do.
TC OFF usually on track, after a few warm-up laps. Always learn something new about tires' (not TC's) feedback at the limit of adhesion.
TC OFF always on autoX course.
TC OFF occasionally on the street, ON by default.

Freedom, and all that.

I think Tesla has drawn in a number of performance fans with the Roadster and Performance models. Performance drivers are a fairly small minority of all drivers out there.

Very true.

It's a bit of a culture clash, brought forth by the availability of TM3P that can actually handle some track time.

Being that this is a highly passionate and judgmental forum, the consensus crowd really doesn't welcome folks with different opinions and preferences of how they want to enjoy driving their Tesla's.
That's unfortunate, but self-evident.

I've watched threads here where people were loosing their minds, and were ready to call police, over folks driving in Track Mode on the streets.
'nuff said.


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[Valore]

I have no idea what you are referring to as "widowmaker", but suspect that comment was not grounded in experience of track driving, or owning a Porsche (or another sports car).

1975 Porsche 911 Turbo (930) is known as the "widowmaker" as it was fun as heck to drive with 300hp RWD and low weight and sudden turbo boost as was common in the early turbo days with very little safety (no airbags,...).
Lots of people crashed and died, therefore the nickname "widowmaker".
Every sportscar enthusiast must know this legendary beast of a car.
This's mine:

 

[seattlite2004]

OK in simpler english perhaps you should take a Model 3 to the track yourself to find out. Many did just that. The conclusion has pretty much univerally been it will beat any non-track oriented Porsche (non-GT 911 or Cayman) on the track.

Here is one from someone on the Tesla forum who is also a long time Porsche owner and track instructor.

Big track review of Track Mode | Tesla

From the article:

"To sum up, if you listen to the videos, you will hear a lot of laughter and we were not even playing with emissions mode. This car is a total blast to drive, but the computer really is doing more than I would want. Of course I say the same thing about every Porsche built after 2012. The computer and nannies are great and fast, but they take the skill and challenge from the driver in exchange for control and safety."​

So..does that mean he wants more or less computer control? I guess if the car gives you the options (on, some off, majority off, all off) then everyone is satisfied...track folks and non-tracked folks.

I would never want to explore car's "handling limit". It suits me just fine if it's out of reach especially on a track. That comment is pretty amateurish. You really want to drive a "widowmaker' to have fun? I know Porsche no longer makes widowmakers but that explore handling limit comment just reminded me how some people at those times would make a deficiency into a desirable thing until they knew better.
........

I think Tesla also makes widowmakers...like this one: Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)