Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Krugerrand]

I wonder about this - seems likely that we would have to end up with some variant of a universal basic income, and hence taxation would not go away, imho

Definitely upheaval is coming.

 

[insaneoctane]

I wonder about this - seems likely that we would have to end up with some variant of a universal basic income, and hence taxation would not go away, imho

In the US, once a bot becomes a reality and begins to truly displace actual paid workers, expect the government to notice. In the immediate term, at least to replace the ~15% social security and medicare taxes that is shared by both the employer and employee. For every worker Optimus can displace, the government loses ~15% of their earnings solely for SS/Medicare. That money needs to be replaced, so no doubt they will tax the bots/employer. Look how quickly states are already taxing EVs to recoup lost gasoline taxation. Interesting because these taxes aren't in most analysts calculations....but I think they will be significant.

 

[2daMoon]

Anyone else feel Tesla still hasn't mastered the art of sandbagging WS yet? While *I* appreciate the full transparency with their impressive goals, it feels like reality often disappoints vs Elon's aggressive goals. Examples of the extremely aggressive goals include: battery day, cybertruck ramp, roadster ramp, semi ramp, gen 2 anything, FSD, Optimus, etc. Feels like WS takes this transparency and creates expectations that Tesla can't actually match. Don't confuse this comment and think I'm not impressed with Tesla's accomplishments, rather comparing their optimistic goals vs delivery and how TSLA surprises WS to the upside....

To me it mostly boils down to...

You can fool all of the people some of the time and
you can fool some of the people all of the time,
but, you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
​

Time is on our side.

 

[2daMoon]

In the US, once a bot becomes a reality and begins to truly displace actual paid workers, expect the government to notice. In the immediate term, at least to replace the ~15% social security and medicare taxes that is shared by both the employer and employee. For every worker Optimus can displace, the government loses ~15% of their earnings solely for SS/Medicare. That money needs to be replaced, so no doubt they will tax the bots/employer. Look how quickly states are already taxing EVs to recoup lost gasoline taxation. Interesting because these taxes aren't in most analysts calculations....but I think they will be significant.

Another thing to factor in is how drastically renewables will reduce the cost of energy. As this cost goes down the quality of life will go up.

It is entirely conceivable that the maintenance cost of energy will eventually be the only cost, and it will be so insignificant that it could be considered free. There will be abundant energy available to support a thriving existence for everyone.

Consider for a moment how the cost of living is made up of mostly the cost of energy required to provide goods and services. If that cost is essentially free there will be a drastic shift in how people live and work and govern themselves.

The transition to renewable energy will result in a paradigm shift over the coming years. When everyone can live comfortably and choose to contribute by being productive and creative (or not), then the world will be quite a different place. The motivations that drive the will to seek power, to steal, to manipulate and similar behavior will be refocused elsewhere. When you can have and do whatever you want (so long as it doesn't interfere with another) there is much less opportunity for unscrupulous behavior to offer any advantage.

It seems to me that most people find it a stretch to even try to imagine such a world, and we are at the tipping point right now.

There is a palpable undercurrent of fear and desperation permeating the actions of those in positions of power. These dynasties built upon keeping a tight hand on the pulse of energy can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Because that light is a freight train of free energy barreling down upon them, they are struggling to see how they will preserve their generations of power-mongering beyond the transition.

 

[Surfer of Life]

In the US, once a bot becomes a reality and begins to truly displace actual paid workers, expect the government to notice. In the immediate term, at least to replace the ~15% social security and medicare taxes that is shared by both the employer and employee. For every worker Optimus can displace, the government loses ~15% of their earnings solely for SS/Medicare. That money needs to be replaced, so no doubt they will tax the bots/employer. Look how quickly states are already taxing EVs to recoup lost gasoline taxation. Interesting because these taxes aren't in most analysts calculations....but I think they will be significant.

Why do those taxes need to be replaced when robots will never collect SS/Medicare?

 

[wipster]

Did you? Sleep well? I bit my fingers so you could. Perhaps tonight you won't sleep as well.
The price was exactly where the MM's and others wanted TSLA to be yesterday as Rentz (sp?) posted yesterday morning. Whether micro or macro analyzing the stock price one clearly sees the Stock Price is not reacting to anything factual.
There is no reason for the stock to be where it is. And that can be said for when it traded at $400 or $100. The flock of amateur traders in the stock provide the Shepherds of the stock massive profits for their endeavors.
My one hope is that advertising will make the company more stable in the minds of investors, and the MM-types will find another flock to fleece. Advertising won't do this so much by what is in the ads. But by the fact that Commercial news channels will quit creating FUD. The Tesla ad money is protection/extortion money.

Yes, I slept quite well (even if it was by artificial means). Hope your fingers are alright, gotta be careful, only have 10 of them so don't bite too hard...

Aa for "advertising" I can't wait to see them! I expect they'll be more informational than promotional because as most of you Tesla owners already know, there's a lot of misconceptions out there regarding not only Teslas but electric cars in general. Think about to what the majority of questions asked of you correspond... range, charging capability, battery life, service required, fuel costs, etc. I believe Tesla will utilize their advertising to answer those questions and hopefully take away the anxiety newbies have about switching to BEV's and in doing so increase the demand for not only Teslas but electric vehicles in general.

Then again, maybe I dreamt it all. I think I'll change my moniker to Rip (as in Van Winkle) so wake me after the next 5 for 1 split takes us back to 200 ;-)

 

[rolfrenz]

Why do those taxes need to be replaced when robots will never collect SS/Medicare?

Because they want the money… At least in Austria it would/will be like that.

 

[wipster]

Why do those taxes need to be replaced when robots will never collect SS/Medicare?

While the bots will never require SS/Medicare, the people they replace will, perhaps even more than now. As was kind of mentioned by @2daMoon in a previous post, the whole concept of Social Security will need to be rethought to include not only retirement due to old age but one due to obsolescence because humans are no longer required for the job you used to do.

As Bob Dylan sang, "The Times They Are A Changing."

 

[AndrewZ]

We need to automate/robotize entire value chains and make the products effectively free, that should be the real goal and Elon has previously speculated about what "the economy" even means if this becomes reality.

And then we can move towards a Star Trek-like society where money doesn't exist, because money is just a unit of exchange facilitating trade in a capitalist economy. If everything is automated and done by robots, money doesn't even need to be a thing.

 

[Darkfox021]

Why do those taxes need to be replaced when robots will never collect SS/Medicare?

Because effectively, there is no SS/Medicare savings account. Current collections go to current beneficiaries. You stop collecting, you stop the payouts.

 

[Ogre]

Why do those taxes need to be replaced when robots will never collect SS/Medicare?

Musk has said on multiple occasions that Universal Basic Income (UBI) is probably necessary at some point.

Funding that is going to have to come from the profits of successful enterprise.

Maybe that’s not a per-bot tax, but effect is eventually the same.

 

[Tony73]

In the US, once a bot becomes a reality and begins to truly displace actual paid workers, expect the government to notice. In the immediate term, at least to replace the ~15% social security and medicare taxes that is shared by both the employer and employee. For every worker Optimus can displace, the government loses ~15% of their earnings solely for SS/Medicare. That money needs to be replaced, so no doubt they will tax the bots/employer. Look how quickly states are already taxing EVs to recoup lost gasoline taxation. Interesting because these taxes aren't in most analysts calculations....but I think they will be significant.

Generally economies adapt and create new jobs. ATMs and online banking alone probably displaced a couple million workers over the last decades. The government never saw fit to tax ATMs.

 

[insaneoctane]

Why do those taxes need to be replaced when robots will never collect SS/Medicare?

Because with the SS system, you don't pay your own future benefits, rather the current workers are paying for current retirees. If you displace a worker currently contributing to SS, someone that is currently retired needs those tax dollars. If Optimus only creates new jobs, this isn't a problem....rather it's a problem for each displaced worker.

 

[JRP3]

Generally economies adapt and create new jobs. ATMs and online banking alone probably displaced a couple million workers over the last decades. The government never saw fit to tax ATMs.

I haven't seen any physical banks close down locally and new ones are still being built.

 

[madodel]

In US, no employer FICA (SS and Medicare) contribution.

And no worker paying into the Social Security and Medicare funds so retired people can collect an income to live on.

 

[Buckminster]

Threads of the day:
Universal Basic Income (UBI) is coming
Tesla Optimus Sub-Prime Robot

BYD Blade Batteries

 

[insaneoctane]

Another thing to factor in is how drastically renewables will reduce the cost of energy. As this cost goes down the quality of life will go up.

It is entirely conceivable that the maintenance cost of energy will eventually be the only cost, and it will be so insignificant that it could be considered free. There will be abundant energy available to support a thriving existence for everyone.

Consider for a moment how the cost of living is made up of mostly the cost of energy required to provide goods and services. If that cost is essentially free there will be a drastic shift in how people live and work and govern themselves.

The transition to renewable energy will result in a paradigm shift over the coming years. When everyone can live comfortably and choose to contribute by being productive and creative (or not), then the world will be quite a different place. The motivations that drive the will to seek power, to steal, to manipulate and similar behavior will be refocused elsewhere. When you can have and do whatever you want (so long as it doesn't interfere with another) there is much less opportunity for unscrupulous behavior to offer any advantage.

It seems to me that most people find it a stretch to even try to imagine such a world, and we are at the tipping point right now.

There is a palpable undercurrent of fear and desperation permeating the actions of those in positions of power. These dynasties built upon keeping a tight hand on the pulse of energy can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Because that light is a freight train of free energy barreling down upon them, they are struggling to see how they will preserve their generations of power-mongering beyond the transition.

I've shared this before, but energy doesn't look like it will ever be cheap in California. Even if electricity were generated for free, my public utility will still charge me $0.16/kWh to provide me with that "free" power using today's rates. I've got solar now, but life decisions have rendered my array size far too small for my current needs. I plan to leave the excessively taxed Golden state waaaaay before I could recoup a ROI to properly size my solar. I'll install proper solar on my future hill (no mountain here).

 

[samppa]

Lots of chatting about gasoline taxes and what it'll be for evs..

out here gasoline is taxed about .90€/litre (!)

So if you fill up 100 litres, you're paying 90€ in taxes. Price of gas is about 2€/litre.

lets say you drive 20k kms/year, with a gasoline car that eats 10l/100km.. thats 2000 litres of gasoline. Thats gonna cost 4000€, and you're paying around 1800€ only in taxes..

Yeah, I really do not understand why people buy new gas or diesel cars.. and then they whine about how expensive it is to drive.. it's almost like basic elementary school math has been forgotten..

 

[totoro722]

I've shared this before, but energy doesn't look like it will ever be cheap in California. Even if electricity were generated for free, my public utility will still charge me $0.16/kWh to provide me with that "free" power using today's rates. I've got solar now, but life decisions have rendered my array size far too small for my current needs. I plan to leave the excessively taxed Golden state waaaaay before I could recoup a ROI to properly size my solar. I'll install proper solar on my future hill (no mountain here).

Welcome to the growing throng of California ex-pats!

 

[Artful Dodger]

No healthcare benefits
No worker’s compensation
No PTO or FTO, sick leave, paternity leave, lateness
No freebies like coffee, cola, juice, snack foods
No uniforms (t-shirts, hats etc…)
No promotions and thus higher salaries
Smaller parking lots
Smaller cafeterias
Fewer bathrooms and lesser other employee spaces (locker room, showers, workout room, entertainment room)
Smaller HR department
Smaller payroll department

No more $137 M 'racism' awards by renegade Californian juries...
No more all-expenses paid 'Tripps' to Romania c/o Linette Lopez & Co...
No more toilet paper.