I've enagaged lawyers in an attempt to recover FSD cost (Australian owner)

[Audietron]

Presumably Elon didn’t write the text of the FSD promises on the Tesla website personally. It’s the job of the people who did write it, along with Tesla’s legal team, to appropriately moderate and define what FSD capabilities are intended to be provided and when, so that Tesla would not ever be confronted with accusations of lying or misleading people.

Their job is not to just shrug their shoulders and meekly accept someone’s “overly optimistic” bias because that’s just the way they are, but to challenge it when it needs to be challenged and provide warnings of what could happen if their advice is ignored. If timeframes were only ever “guesses” then that should have been clearly disclosed, in writing, at the point of sale of the product.

So either those people didn’t do the job they should have done, or they did but Elon didn’t listen. So which was it?

Totally agree....

legally CEO owns all the risks and promises made by company, specifically the ones made by CEO himself over and over after failing on each time... it doesn't matter who exactly mess it up across the organisation (in this case statement made by CEO), as long as it's from official channel - consequences comes only to organisation as whole and CEO as ultimate risk owner.

 

[Audietron]

I believe those estimates were given based on what they believed at the time as has been explained a number of times.

Did they get it wrong? Obviously yes.

Is that unique? Absolutely not! If you want to hold every company to the same standards that every mistake must be repeatedly highlighted and they must be forever punished for making an optimistic prediction which they did not achieve, you are going to be VERY busy.

I prefer to look at the complete picture realise that they are attempting and have repeatedly achieved things that have never been done before and that all of the experts and commentators said were impossible and cut them a little slack on timelines in the same way I have with countless other tech companies.

The mere fact that they are attempting something the scope of FSD would cause the average level headed customer to expect that any estimates given are nowhere near a guarantee and make their decisions accordingly.

In that case should I expect Tesla to perfect windscreen wipers by 2035 - hopefully? they are risking my and every Tesla owners life by skipping $4 rain sensor and trying to achieve vision based functionality by testing it in production cars... being a small feature and knowing how long it has been pending any fix, 10-11 years would be valid guestimate...

It's not called being visionary to add concept feature to production car... it's called careless...
every car companies have ground breaking features and design and ideas - which are released with concept cars - but only the ones complying with safety standards and deemed full functional makes to mainstream... Tesla found way around it by disabling rain sensor and enabling vision based rain detection doesn't make tesla visionary - it's irresponsible if not criminal.

 

[Audietron]

This is the disclaimer I received when choosing FSD from the Australian site in 2019.

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of kilometers of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.

which may take longer in some jurisdictions....
totally defends them as long as they have it perfected and available on roads in most other jurisdictions - such as most LHD jurisdictions.

 

[Midnight Man]

In that case should I expect Tesla to perfect windscreen wipers by 2035 - hopefully? they are risking my and every Tesla owners life by skipping $4 rain sensor

I'm handing back my Mazda CX-5 rental today after 4.5 months of driving it (my Model Y has been in for hail damage).

The wipers on that car, with your highly praised $4 rain sensor are worse than my Tesla ever was (bear in mind please, as per my signature, I picked up the Tesla in September 2023). I've had 2 dry wipes on my Tesla, and needed on the very odd occasion to manually hit 1 wipe for some super-light mist. On the Mazda, you mostly have to use manual control.

Don't even get me started on Mazda ADAS systems, I consider myself lucky I was able to save the car from itself...

 

[Jules22]

Don't even get me started on Mazda ADAS systems

Yep, I've had TRUE phantom braking in Mazda's, ie full lock up of the brakes for absolutely no reason, not just a slow down of 2-3km/h

As for rain sensors, absolutely, some who like to rant about fraud etc, seem to forget that they are not perfect. I'm not defending the Tesla system, it's got a long way to go, but anyone who has had rain sensors in heavy or undulating volumes of rain will understand why Tesla decided to try to find something better.

The Tesla system is unfortunately very inconsistent, ie in many people's experience, particularly over the past couple of months they've been excellent, better than rain sensors apart from the odd dry wipe, but with the number of people out there still reporting issues, they clearly haven't been solved (though I'd suggest for the person claiming that if having to manually wipe is "risking your life" you might want to hand your license back).

It may very well turn out that the vision based approach for wipers won't work and they have to just settle for the deficincies that exist in rain sensors. The fact that they are willing to try to find a better approach is why we have viable EV's today, the question everything and willingness to do the hard job of looking for better options rather than just settle for 'almost good enough' is why Tesla make the best vehicles in the world. Of course, some here will call them 'frauds' because they tried something and failed if it ever comes to that. At the end of the day Tesla's (and Musk's companies in general) track record of achieving the impossible is unprecedented, so I know who I'll bet on and it isn't some random ranting on a forum.

 

[Audietron]

issue is not dry wipes, which are rare... issue is wet screen not wiped... more frequently when auto driving, but very frequently when manually driven.
It's easy to trigger manual wiper, but that's not the point.... I owned 6-7 Audi before Tesla and none had wiper issues when set to auto... rented 100s of cars from different manufacturers but never had wiper issues when on auto... driven 2 Tesla so far and only since vision based wiper is having issues, otherwise it was perfect...

comparing to Mazda Cx-5 which is voted in NZ as worst car of year is funny... why would you compare Tesla to worst car on road?

Fraud remark are on fraud behaviour with selling FSD.... wiper point is just example of trying new thing on production vehicles instead of test vehicle fleet - as most manufacturer do... it's safe practice and hurts no human lives.

but end of the day you wouldn't convince me or anyone with open eyes and fact based judgement that false advertising on FSD and false promised on FSD timeline are not equalling to Fraud..... same as, neither I or anyone else would be able to convince you or any other blindsided Tesla investor or fan that Tesla could commit fraud....

One of the examples indicating Fraud was proven and accepted by Elon Musk...

SEC.gov | Elon Musk Settles SEC Fraud Charges; Tesla Charged With and Resolves Securities Law Charge

and declaration that all cars have hardware capable of driving better than humans, however putting condition of software capabilities and annual promise of achieving FSD...

All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware | Tesla

www.tesla.com

When we buy a mobile phone, we demand it to work on all features....
When we buy vegetables and ready food from supermarket, we demand it to stick to quality and ingredients it's displaying...
we catch an uber ride, we expect car to be what we booked (comfort, pet, black class etc).....
so when we buy a brand new car, we expect it to work safely and function as promised, including but not limited to any addon (FSD here) we purchased with it or for it (at later date).....

 

[jumpingfool]

@jaykaye Did you decide to move forward with the next stage of your legal challenge?

I have some experience with the NSW tribunal system (which is where this would likely need to go next) and am also in the same boat as you - about to sell my M3P with FSD and annoyed Telsa never delivered. Happy to share the time investment and any costs.

I would DM you but it seems this forum restricts privileges for new users.