electricity
Member
You dont need and most users dont drive with the hands on the wheel. If you had autopilot you would understand what they mean by being responsible about it and believe me it has nothing to do with holding the wheel at all times.
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You dont need and most users dont drive with the hands on the wheel. If you had autopilot you would understand what they mean by being responsible about it and believe me it has nothing to do with holding the wheel at all times.
Disagree. I am much more comfortable having at least one hand resting on or holding the wheel. The fraction of a second reaction time could make a difference and there's always situations where you have to take over.
Electricfan
Active Member
I've been driving with Autopilot since Tesla sent the software download. I bought my 2015 Model S before AP was functional and looked forward to it as much as anybody on the forum. I'm one of the few who is deeply disappointed in it.
What were you expecting it to do?
Drive itself while you take a nap in the back seat?
Drive itself while you take a nap in the back seat?
Electricfan
Active Member
Clearly I was expecting more than I got. But I don't think anybody can claim (well, legitimately claim) they bought a Model S for the autopilot feature, like I did, and expected to have to "Keep both hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any moment", like it says every time you enable it while driving. It's worthless to me at this point. Except in traffic jams, where I do like to use it. But other than that I'm much more relaxed just driving myself. I certainly don't trust it on long trips as other seem to claim it is so wonderful at. I hope they're not watching movies while driving.
@Electricfan - I do understand your disappointment with autopilot. Like you I was too excited and expecting more autonomous driving. However, since AP became available and several people have taken rides with me, I have come to understand that I will need to wait for the day when I will be able to summon the car to pick me up at my office and drive me home.
It's not just about the technology, I think the technology exists today. It's the regulation around autonomous driving that is lagging behind. The society today does have anxiety around autonomous driving but that anxiety cannot be pacified until people see more autopilot capabilities on the road. No level of in the lab testing can cause people to trust the technology. We need laws today that permit autonomous driving and set forth liability and protect people's rights. What we don't need is more regulation that cripples the advancement of technology.
You are absolutely justified in not trusting autopilot. Since autopilot was curtailed on undivided roads courtesy another CR tantrum, it has IMHO increased the risk. If you use AP on undivided highways, it restricts to 5mph over the speed limit and so the traffic behind you gets impatient and go around you in road rage. And to keep with the flow, you yank it off the AP and drive faster without the additional benefit that AP could provide.
About using AP on long trips, my personal experience is that using AP I was much less fatigued than I ever was with non-AP cars. And to me less fatigued driver equates to more attentive driver. On long trips, especially long straight stretches of highways with minimal traffic, AP is an excellent driver assist feature.
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systemcrashed
Please Reboot
I use AP daily for more than 90% of a 100mile daily round-trip commute between two offices. What I have noticed in the 6+ weeks of ownership so far is that with AP enabled I am able to scan the highway around me a bit further up the road and watch other cars and trucks that I might have never noticed, this allows me to anticipate situations that I would totally miss if i was continually focused on keeping my car in the center of my lane and at a safe distance from the car directly in front of me.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
Especially since you cannot see with the ghosting windshield at night.
We drove 1000 miles back from the Gigafactory event over the weekend. I estimate we had autopilot on for at least 85% of the trip. There were a couple of places where it was a little squirrelly but overall, I was very impressed.
vangogh
Member
I also use driver assist daily....Probebly 5000 of the 7000 miles on my X were clocked with the system. Generally it is very good but it is not perfect - especially if you are traveling >10mph above the posted speed limit. I've been "trained" to reduce speed to the speed limit at some curves where I now know the car would not be able to properly negoitate. It will only get better if legislators don't shut down the crowd sourcing and learning.
With the NHTSA report out today, I assume Consumer Reports is working diligently away on their retraction and apology letter for encouraging policies and practices that would have made the roads less safe for everyone.
So I checked it out and here were the recommendations. Which recommendations made things less safe? Maybe I missed it.
Tesla’s New Autopilot: Better But Still Needs Improvement
- Disable the Autosteer feature of Autopilot until the company requires that drivers keep their hands on the wheel. Autosteer allows the car to steer itself with minimal input from the driver. - done
- Quit calling the system Autopilot because the term is misleading and potentially dangerous. - not done, not necessary.
- Issue clear guidance on how to use the system and its limitations. - done
- Test all safety-critical systems before public deployment; no more beta releases. - I believe Tesla worked with the NHTSA and came to an agreement on this so done.
@msnow - regarding the first recommendation to disable auto steer until driver is hands on - Tesla's revised current implementation does meet the spirit of the recommendation. However, the limitation on speed on undivided roads practically renders it useless.
My commute is mostly a 45min rural road on which I am now restricted to auto steer at speed limit. That consistently annoys drivers behind me who then make unsafe maneuvers to get ahead of me which slows my car further and frustrating more drivers behind me. So, now I am unable to use auto steer and lose the associated safety benefits.
Also, I wonder what will be Tesla's strategy to implement Level 5 with the AP2 hardware. I assume that to get government approval, the Level 5 cars will have to demonstrate that they never exceed speed limits. And thus, in above scenario, we will see more road rage against Level 5 cars and make them unsafe to ride.
No disrespect intended, but I do believe the safety benefits are associated with the intended use (highways, not rural roads), so it's possible that your use of Autosteer in this situation reduces safety. Also, didn't the latest FW change that to +5 mph on those roads? I never use Autosteer except on the highway so I haven't had the chance to check it out.
I think this is a great point. I am not sure how they'll get around that, and I hate the idea that it'll be an impediment to autonomous driving adoption. If I'm the regulatory body, I am going to push for speed limit obedience, though. And if I'm Tesla, I'm going to push for "flow of traffic" speed. Since the regulatory body holds the keys, that's going to be really tricky.
I am not going to waste time on the other points (including the endless handwringing over the term "autopilot," ugh!), but CR's fundamental misstep was and is its shrill and unrealistic insistence on perfection.
Tesla's "Beta" system -- messy and imperfect as it was -- was safer and better than the average driver, yet CR insisted it be taken off the market.
As the saying goes, the perfect is the enemy of the good. CR's strident objection to Tesla providing its customers with a better, safer system because it was imperfect is the fundamental problem I have with CR's position.
And to its discredit, despite the changes Tesla has made to its system, CR is still engaging in scare tactics to discourage its readers from using this accident-avoiding technology. Tesla’s New Autopilot: Better But Still Needs Improvement
CR's recommendation discouraging Tesla from using its accident avoiding and life-saving Autopilot technology, and encouraging its readers to avoid using this technology, is recommending a course of action that is "less safe."
@ohmman - when Tesla implemented the speed limit on rural road, I reasoned it was a step to autonomous driving. But with the road rage I experienced, it made me wonder the future of autonomous cars. As you said, it's pretty obvious that regulatory bodies as well as insurance companies would not allow anything over the posted limit.
And having put sufficient miles earlier on autopilot on the rural road, I can definitely say it keeps much better center than I do. I have never had an instance where I felt it would have strayed onto oncoming traffic or put anyone at risk. Of course, you have to know your road too and when to disengage but for a good 70-80% of my ride it can be safely used.
I'm just not seeing any recommendations from CR (other than renaming AP) that wasn't agreed to and implemented by both Tesla and the NHTSA including forcing "hands on the wheel" for it to work. Certainly people can have different opinions on this but I feel safer now than before.
Consumer Reports still cautions against use of Autopilot. Tesla’s New Autopilot: Better But Still Needs Improvement
For example, its website still includes the following:
- Quit calling the system Autopilot because the term is misleading and potentially dangerous.
- Test all safety-critical systems before public deployment; no more beta releases.
This vehicle can be outfitted with a semi-autonomous driving package. Consumer Reports believes automakers should take stronger steps to ensure that vehicles with those systems are designed, deployed, and marketed safely. Please heed all warnings, and keep your hands on the wheel. 2016 Tesla Model S | Reviews and Ratings from Consumer Reports
And it has not backed off from its insistence on perfection and objection to Tesla's rollout of safer, even if imperfect "Beta" technology.
However, despite Tesla’s improvements to Autopilot we have some lingering issues. Someone can drive hands-free for about a minute and even longer on highways. The system still is called Autopilot. It also remains a beta release, a term used in the technology world when essentially unfinished software is rolled out to the public. (Tesla CEO Elon Musk said last month that the system is not a true beta release and that the company calls it that to reduce people’s comfort level with turning the system on.)
Since even in its very early form this technology reduces accidents by almost 40 percent, CR should be strongly encouraging it, instead of raising the red flag repeatedly.
Its unscientific fearmongering is doing its readers, and the public, a disservice.
Ok, I guess we see it differently. Where CR states "we still have concerns" (their words) you interpret as "Consumer Reports still cautions against use of Autopilot" (your words).
All I can say to that is that thanks to both CR's prodding and the NHTSA cooperative involvement with Tesla we have a better product now and likely safer than before. As someone that has used AP since the day it first came out in 2015 I have to say I also have concerns when it sometimes veers towards trucks and gets squirrelly in lanes. That doesn't mean I don't use it, it just means I am aware and concerned enough to know when to be at the highest alert level or to disengage it. I also don't mind people, magazines or Tesla themselves pushing for perfection. Anyway, enough said.
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