Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread

[CorneliusXX]

If they're not analogues to bitcoin then comparing them to bitcoin- the thing you actually did- seems like a weird choice. Because it means the reasons they were currency (and they weren't QUITE currency either- the stones weren't typically used for buy food for the day or anything like that- they most often were used as gift exchange- to seal political deals, marriages, or hilariously FOR CRIME (paying ransom)) aren't relevant to BTC.

One author cited wrote of the stones as " used principally “to create, maintain, and otherwise reorganize relations between people”, not principally for activities like buying goods and services or loaning at interest for profit."

Even one of the pro-BTC authors cited (Fitzpatrick) is cited admitting "Yapese stone money is not really money at all"

I'm not going to try and justify an argument I didn't make because I've been accused of making it. You can go back and read that I think lots of "stupid" items have value to certain people over a long time horizon. I didn't say rai stones were analogous to BTC any more than sneakers or fine art.

Just go to Wikipedia to see that these rocks are a "stupid" store of value - as I was saying. That's got lots of references. But Wikipedia also claims that they are a medium of exchange (or currency if you will) in high value transactions.

Rai stones were, and still are,[16] used in rare important social transactions, such as marriage, inheritance, political deals, sign of an alliance, ransom of the battle dead, or, rarely, in exchange for food.[3]: 12  Many are placed in front of meetinghouses, around village courts, or along pathways.

 

[dhanson865]

Right now BitPay is the only 3rd party I trust with my coins and only in the fact that they convert them to USD immediately on deposit and then I have a Mastercard backed by a US bank to spend the USD.

Here are the limits of pulling BTC into USD this way

The maximum aggregate value of your Card Account(s) may not exceed $25,000 at any time. The maximum value will be determined by aggregating the activity and value of all Card Accounts you may have with the Program. For security reasons, we may further limit the
number or dollar amount of transactions you can make with your Card. The following grid is provided in order to highlight the frequency and limitations of cardholder transactions in a single day or additional time frame if warranted:

Transaction/load type Maximum amount

Maximum balance on the card $25,000 (Maximum balance on card at any time)
Cash withdrawal (ATM & bank teller) $2,000 per withdrawal, 3 withdrawals per day, $25,000 per month
Purchases (POS) $10,000 per day (the “Daily Purchase Limit”)
Value loads $10,000 per day (Any combination of all supported load types)

basically the only place I'd want to spend my BTC is directly with Tesla to buy a car, directly to the bank which holds my home mortgage (which won't accept BTC or my Bitpay Debit card, the only thing they will accept is a bank account number), directly to my Checking* so I can pay other bills, or directly to my Stock account*.

I haven't found any way to move funds from the Bitpay prepaid debit card directly to my checking or Stock brokers account. So the only way I know to use my BTC without trusting a 3rd party other than Bitpay with my BTC is to put it on the debit card and then pay small bills (like cell phone, meals at a restaurant, car insurance, and such) or pull money out of an ATM $2,000 at a time, carry it by hand to my bank teller and deposit it there. BTW ATM or Teller withdrawals have a fee of $2.50 and a third party surcharge may apply.

So if BTC gets high enough for my checking account gets low enough I can pull ~$2,000 at a time over from BTC to my checking through several steps (BTC - Bitpay debit card - ATM - Bank).

If any brick and mortar US bank in my city would do the bitcoin to USD conversion for a reasonable fee (less than 0.15% I'd open checking account with them and skip the Bitpay middle man.

 

[cwerdna]

Doomed crypto firm Terraform Labs files for bankruptcy in the US

Terraform Labs, the infamous crypto company behind TerraUSD and Luna, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in Delaware.

www.engadget.com

Terraform Labs files for bankruptcy protection in the U.S.

Kwon and Terraform Labs were held responsible for two cryptocurrencies whose collapse caused turbulence in crypto markets around the world in 2022.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Knightshade]

Bit more, mostly from the Financial Times, about how deeply meh the reaction to the BTC ETFs has been-

--------

Bitcoin has lost 16 per cent of its value over the past two weeks, as some investors use the much-hyped launch of bitcoin exchange traded funds earlier this month to take profits and exit their holdings of the volatile cryptocurrency.

The price of bitcoin sank as much as 3 per cent on Tuesday, falling below $39,000 for the first time since early December.

The recent losses have unwound part of a huge rally late last year, which came amid fevered speculation that the launch of mainstream stock market funds tracking the world’s leading crypto token would draw in new investors to bitcoin.

But the flows into the ETFs — many launched by big Wall Street players such as BlackRock — have underwhelmed and investors who bought them have been left with hefty losses.

The 10 new funds launched on January 11, after they were approved by the US Securities and Exchange Commission, had collectively pulled in $4.7bn by the end of Tuesday, according to crypto investment group CoinShares. Bitcoin traded at $46,100 on the day the ETFs were launched, but has fallen steadily since.

At the same time, $3.4bn has left Grayscale’s fund, the world’s largest bitcoin investment vehicle, since it converted to an ETF alongside the new launches.


-----
That’s $1.4 billion of net new demand. Coinmarketcap tells me that the total market capitalization of Bitcoin is about $775 billion, and it trades about $30 billion a day, so adding $1.4 billion just isn’t that much. It turns out that crypto enthusiasts anticipated much higher mainstream demand for Bitcoin ETFs than has so far manifested.




The bit below and above the ---- is all from the FT, the one paragraph after it is from Matt Levines reporting on how disinterested "new" people appear to be in BTC-- with the vast majority of the $ moved into them being money moved OUT of the much-harder-to-liquidate existing Grayscale BTC fund.

 

[heltok]

I've been owning bitcoin and eth ETFs(XBT, BTC ZERO etc) for a long time. And I have heard the story so many times before. Sure it might drive some extra volatility around the rumours, launches and crackdowns, but overall it's a pretty small part of the story of Bitcoin so far.

Like I said, it adds some volatility around the rumour and launch. Buy the rumour, sell the news is the meme... Afew years later we have forgotten about the launch of BITO etc, like we will forget about this launch.

The New York Stock Exchange has officially launched the first Bitcoin ETF in the United States on Oct 19, 2021. The first day’s trading volume was 24.42 million shares, worth about 1 billion dollars, making it the most popular financial market investment of the day and one of the most widely held ETFs.

ProShares, an American asset management firm, has launched a “Bitcoin Strategy ETF.” The United States SEC recently cleared it to go public, and it became the first ETF to be accepted in the eight-year history of Bitcoin ETF applications in the United States. This is seen as a watershed moment in the history of cryptocurrencies, indicating that Bitcoin has entered the capital-rich realm of the mainstream U.S. market.

According to the ProShares release note, the ProShares Bitcoin Strategy ETF will trade under the ticker symbol “BITO” on the New York Stock Exchange. BITO will be betting on the future price trend of Bitcoin rather than directly investing in Bitcoin spot. BITO mainly invests in compliant futures contracts traded on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, with an annual management fee rate of 0.95%. As of October 19, it has held contract positions worth more than $570 million.

 

[CorneliusXX]

Bit more, mostly from the Financial Times, about how deeply meh the reaction to the BTC ETFs has been-

--------

Bitcoin has lost 16 per cent of its value over the past two weeks, as some investors use the much-hyped launch of bitcoin exchange traded funds earlier this month to take profits and exit their holdings of the volatile cryptocurrency.

The price of bitcoin sank as much as 3 per cent on Tuesday, falling below $39,000 for the first time since early December.

The recent losses have unwound part of a huge rally late last year, which came amid fevered speculation that the launch of mainstream stock market funds tracking the world’s leading crypto token would draw in new investors to bitcoin.

But the flows into the ETFs — many launched by big Wall Street players such as BlackRock — have underwhelmed and investors who bought them have been left with hefty losses.

The 10 new funds launched on January 11, after they were approved by the US Securities and Exchange Commission, had collectively pulled in $4.7bn by the end of Tuesday, according to crypto investment group CoinShares. Bitcoin traded at $46,100 on the day the ETFs were launched, but has fallen steadily since.

At the same time, $3.4bn has left Grayscale’s fund, the world’s largest bitcoin investment vehicle, since it converted to an ETF alongside the new launches.


-----
That’s $1.4 billion of net new demand. Coinmarketcap tells me that the total market capitalization of Bitcoin is about $775 billion, and it trades about $30 billion a day, so adding $1.4 billion just isn’t that much. It turns out that crypto enthusiasts anticipated much higher mainstream demand for Bitcoin ETFs than has so far manifested.




The bit below and above the ---- is all from the FT, the one paragraph after it is from Matt Levines reporting on how disinterested "new" people appear to be in BTC-- with the vast majority of the $ moved into them being money moved OUT of the much-harder-to-liquidate existing Grayscale BTC fund.

Back to profit. Apparently it's volatile. I predict it will go up, then down, and so forth.

 

[Captkerosene]

Selling TSLA to buy BTC. I suspect that many Tesla investors are also Bitcoin investors. (I am.) Wouldn't surprise me if some have been selling some TSLA to buy more BTC.

EDIT: It looks like I'm saying that I'm selling TSLA, not true. The first line is meant as the subject rather than an action I'm taking.

 

[Captkerosene]

I know you are joking but Elon has just sent up the batbtc signal.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1757092523850276872

My mind goes to Dogecoin...

Or could be Tesla - Elon frustrated nobody has cracked his t shirt puzzle! Or that nobody cares enough to even talk about it.

My theory is that the only gigacastings on Redwood will be the unboxed sides.

Not joking. Probably not many OGs here that own BTC but traders jump on the fastest horse. At this moment, BTC is the faster horse. (I actually think that BTC ETFs have been affecting the TSLA price for the last month.)

 

[Captkerosene]

Selling TSLA to buy BTC. I suspect that many Tesla investors are also Bitcoin investors. (I am.) Wouldn't surprise me if some have been selling some TSLA to buy more BTC.

EDIT: It looks like I'm saying that I'm selling TSLA, not true. The first line is meant as the subject rather than an action I'm taking.

Edited for clarity.

 

[alhounos]

Not joking. Probably not many OGs here that own BTC but traders jump on the fastest horse. At this moment, BTC is the faster horse. (I actually think that BTC ETFs have been affecting the TSLA price for the last month.)

Absolutely there's a lot of BTC/TSLA crossover - software people, nerds, techno-optimists, ornery contrarians.
BTC is going to have a much better year than TSLA, I have no doubt about that and will be allocating accordingly.

 

[Todd Burch]

Absolutely there's a lot of BTC/TSLA crossover - software people, nerds, techno-optimists, ornery contrarians.
BTC is going to have a much better year than TSLA, I have no doubt about that and will be allocating accordingly.

Remind me of the products and services that BTC provides, and how it's changing the world?

Oh, you just want to gamble. The casino is this way....

 

[Atomsla]

Absolutely there's a lot of BTC/TSLA crossover - software people, nerds, techno-optimists, ornery contrarians.
BTC is going to have a much better year than TSLA, I have no doubt about that and will be allocating accordingly.

No doubt, huh? I find that interesting.

 

[alhounos]

Remind me of the products and services that BTC provides, and how it's changing the world?

Oh, you just want to gamble. The casino is this way....

Yes, BTC is a gamble, but investing in a 15 year old company headed by a volatile genius CEO with a history of childhood trauma that’s attempting to disrupt two of the largest industries on earth (energy and autos) while making longshot bets on autonomous driving is definitely NOT a gamble!

We’re all on the same team here, have some humility. My BTC holdings give me the confidence to hold TSLA, even when it’s going through a tricky period like it is now.

 

[heltok]

Remind me of the products and services that BTC provides, and how it's changing the world?

Transactions, store of value, timestamping. So far the change has been relatively small, ~$1T, but it has been rapidly growing over the last 15 years. It changes the world in that people now have an alternative and this is having a second effect on limiting how badly state actors can mismanage the economy.

 

[heltok]

First of all, the money supply needs to increase as the economy grows, lest you get deflation

Need is a bit strong. Pretty sure Elon and many other people disagree with the statement even if keynesian economics is mainstream nowadays. As an example, during the 19th century there were two longer periods of deflation in the US and US was mostly okay, in fact a lot of things got a lot better during this time period.

Then we went off the gold standard and economists have been doing their best to please the hand that feeds them and now it's mainstream. But it wasn't always like this and hopefully soon we will return to this.

 

[heltok]

As we are inching closer to $60k/BTC

https://twitter.com/x/status/1762474414216515693

 

[Daniel in SD]

Need is a bit strong. Pretty sure Elon and many other people disagree with the statement even if keynesian economics is mainstream nowadays. As an example, during the 19th century there were two longer periods of deflation in the US and US was mostly okay, in fact a lot of things got a lot better during this time period.

Then we went off the gold standard and economists have been doing their best to please the hand that feeds them and now it's mainstream. But it wasn't always like this and hopefully soon we will return to this.

No thank you. I’ll take the 20th century where we became the largest economy in the world and the only superpower over “mostly ok”. I’d like to see a deflationary currency tried in another country first.

 

[heltok]

No thank you. I’ll take the 20th century where we became the largest economy in the world and the only superpower over “mostly ok”. I’d like to see a deflationary currency tried in another country first.

It was not that bad:

US managed to grow from 2% to 15% of world GDP ie 7x. Compared to 1900-2000 where it only grew from 15% to 20% which is less than 2x...

And USA was not the only country trying the gold standard, there has been quite a few more examples over the last 2500 years.

 

[Daniel in SD]

It was not that bad:
View attachment 1022799

US managed to grow from 2% to 15% of world GDP ie 7x. Compared to 1900-2000 where it only grew from 15% to 20% which is less than 2x...

Also feel free check how it has gone since USA went of the gold standard and inflation started...

I’m thinking the US population as a percentage of world population might have grown a bit between 1800 and 1900.
All I’m saying is I’d like to see a deflationary currency tried somewhere else first. Are countries with deflation growing their gdp per capita faster than the US?

 

[heltok]

GDP per capita also grew a lot:

And yeah it has continued. Imo more thanks to technology than deflation/inflation. My main argument was a lot of economists will say we "need" inflation and that with deflation you get depressions. But we have many longer time periods where this was not the case, so the word "need" is likely false. It may or not be better, I think this is up for debate.

Bitcoin is an interesting experiment with hyperdeflation. Back in the days a lot of people on the internet were saying that Bitcoin being hyperdeflationary would mean that nobody would spend their bitcoins and Bitcoin would die. For me this seemed like a stupid argument, if they really believed in that then they would be stupid to not invest in bitcoins. And imo as they didn't either they were stupid or they hated money... 10+ years later we have the answer, Bitcoins value has gone up and its usage has also gone up, so clearly these people were wrong.