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Does a battery ever have a positive ROI with net metering
- Thread starter mswlogo
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That's was not the intention nor how I would interpret it but it's certainly no worse than the article making rooftop solar out to be the "culprit" as you interpret it.
Can't scale? Just because of the duck curve goes negative at times? Even the article states that having to curtail solar production does not mean the economics is not workable.
GregBallantyne
Member
Yes. There can never be too much solar, there can only be not enough storage.
Storage is good, but I think that there are other, perhaps more cost effective options.
To my way of thinking, it doesn't have to be just storage, rather more ways to absorb excess/low cost production; e.g. production sensitive EV charging levels and rates, building preheat/precooling, hydrogen production, smelter heating, increased pump rates, even thermal storage, etc.
I think that making the marginal cost driven rates available, especially to industrial users, is likely to ameliorate, if not "cure" the issue. I suspect that thinking about the issue of production and demand mismatches broadly is likely to help, and I mean broadly in both possible uses, and geographically.
All the best,
BG
Dramatically increases the cost of solar however. Gone are the days when homeowners could just use what they needed and get paid for any surplus they sent to the grid without any battery/concern for supply/demand mismatches.
Haven't researched the topic yet, but I assume it's more cost effective for utilities to have large battery storage facilities versus individual homeowners or small sites. Allow utilities to control base load while still responding to hour by hour demand fluctuations. OTOH if homeowners want to be completely off the grid (anymore?) or have local battery storage for power outages, that's part of the homeowners calculus.
Yes, many ways to skin the cat
If and when the duck curve goes negative frequently (e.g. daily) then POCO's can sell cheap TOU power to crypto mining farms as they easily ramp up/down "production" and they love any cheap power they can get.
Your results will vary, but the importance of ROI means different things to different people.
During Hurricane Ian my 8.2KW solar with 3 Powerwalls 2s plus a solar water heater were the envoy of everyone in our 405 home complex. We not only powered two other homes and provided hot coffee and golf cart charging for others but housed two other people for ten days. I did have the other two homes turn off their electric water heaters at night. Those with backup generators, LP or otherwise, had to sweat it out worrying if they had enough fuel to get them through. At lease one whole house LP powered generator failed to start and several gas ones quit running during the time we were without power or they ran out of gas. I know this because they came to me for help.
Now two years after the storm, at least 6 other homes here have solar, with more coming on line all the time. Not all with batteries,YET however.
Due to low payback from Florida Power and Light for the energy we sent them last year, I took us off the grid 4 months ago. It was scary at first, but once we got over our fears of being on our own I would never go back on the grid. Now not everyone lives in the "Sunshine State", by the way not a true statement, but for us it works great. I charge our two electric cars off the solar and or batteries and still have energy left over.
So is this the right thing for you to do where you live? Is your ROI worth more than your peace of mind and the extra security and safety of having a solar battery backup? Can you afford this? I leave it up to you. Again YRMV.
P.S. Meat and other refrigerated food does not smell too good when you are out of power for 10 days and they haven't picked up the the garbage for two weeks.
During Hurricane Ian my 8.2KW solar with 3 Powerwalls 2s plus a solar water heater were the envoy of everyone in our 405 home complex. We not only powered two other homes and provided hot coffee and golf cart charging for others but housed two other people for ten days. I did have the other two homes turn off their electric water heaters at night. Those with backup generators, LP or otherwise, had to sweat it out worrying if they had enough fuel to get them through. At lease one whole house LP powered generator failed to start and several gas ones quit running during the time we were without power or they ran out of gas. I know this because they came to me for help.
Now two years after the storm, at least 6 other homes here have solar, with more coming on line all the time. Not all with batteries,YET however.
Due to low payback from Florida Power and Light for the energy we sent them last year, I took us off the grid 4 months ago. It was scary at first, but once we got over our fears of being on our own I would never go back on the grid. Now not everyone lives in the "Sunshine State", by the way not a true statement, but for us it works great. I charge our two electric cars off the solar and or batteries and still have energy left over.
So is this the right thing for you to do where you live? Is your ROI worth more than your peace of mind and the extra security and safety of having a solar battery backup? Can you afford this? I leave it up to you. Again YRMV.
P.S. Meat and other refrigerated food does not smell too good when you are out of power for 10 days and they haven't picked up the the garbage for two weeks.
Matt-FL
Member
My ROI on batteries is about 9.5 years at current electric rates (after federal tax incentives, and after solar ROI is reached @ 5 years 7 months). My utility has raised rates twice since I installed, so I can only assume that timeframe will reduce over time. That's just about at warranty timing, however I expect my batteries to last at least 5 years past the expiration.
Just about two years in, my powerwalls (which drain daily) are still at 107% capacity.
Just about two years in, my powerwalls (which drain daily) are still at 107% capacity.
Also, resale value. We’ve agreed on terms to sell our house (closing soon) and we had a $150k price benefit attributed towards the sale from the solar panels, Powerwalls and the other energy reduction things we did (upgraded many of our electronics/appliances to be more energy efficient, some windows during the remodel, and more insulation)…
If the public utilities planned well they'd have storage for that what is generated in excess and be able to deliver that energy during demand periods when residential solar is not offering surplus to the grid. This is a push - pull problem. Net metering to incentivize customers to add solar. Sure not prolonged duration, but there has to be investment in infrastructure by the public utility to created storage or its back on the consumer to add batteries which may work for the individuals who can afford it/ have the space, but it won't fix the energy demand problem in the slightest.
Interesting convo. We went higher end with our system, and spent a bit more to ensure we could fit our needs (compact roof, moderate usage, big trees all around, expected increases in rates and decreasing grid reliability going forward). So our expected breakeven minus the battery before resale benefits on the house was about 12 years, given my assumptions around future rate increases. With the battery, obviously much worse, but I'm figuring we can likely get at least half of our initial investment back when we sell the house (this isn't the house we can grow old in, and I'm nearing retirement). Time will tell.
I agree with much of what's been said above. Part of our motivation has been to do what we can to mitigate our own carbon footprint. I'm less concerned with the strictly financial calculations, although I'm not ignoring them either. There are intangible benefits that are hard to value in dollars.
Within less than a month of our turning on our PW, we had a major high wind event together with a red flag fire warning, and our utility cut power to 55k people immediately to our north. Although we never lost grid power, I'm feeling a lot less foolish about having spent the extra money on a backup battery. We've also had 6 outages at our place in the last 8 months, 4 of which were just momentary. I'm quite happy with the system so far. The neighbor across the way is on oxygen, and we'll be in a place to help him recharge his battery should he need assistance. All good.
I agree with much of what's been said above. Part of our motivation has been to do what we can to mitigate our own carbon footprint. I'm less concerned with the strictly financial calculations, although I'm not ignoring them either. There are intangible benefits that are hard to value in dollars.
Within less than a month of our turning on our PW, we had a major high wind event together with a red flag fire warning, and our utility cut power to 55k people immediately to our north. Although we never lost grid power, I'm feeling a lot less foolish about having spent the extra money on a backup battery. We've also had 6 outages at our place in the last 8 months, 4 of which were just momentary. I'm quite happy with the system so far. The neighbor across the way is on oxygen, and we'll be in a place to help him recharge his battery should he need assistance. All good.
Well it turns out it would cost more energy to have the batteries than not.
Stupid Solar company didn’t even know how the NetMetering works in NH.
NH Eversource actually has two NetMetering rates. One for short term day to day. And another for month to month.
The day to day rate is 96% !!! The best a battery can do is 92% if you are lucky.
They have a separate rate on your NET overage for the month. That is 80%. That’s mostly what you are storing for winter. Which the battery doesn’t even compete with.
It’s nearly impossible to figure this out from the bill. And I’m grandfathered in until 2041. And folks that had the earlier NetMetering was even better.
www.solarreviews.com
Stupid Solar company didn’t even know how the NetMetering works in NH.
NH Eversource actually has two NetMetering rates. One for short term day to day. And another for month to month.
The day to day rate is 96% !!! The best a battery can do is 92% if you are lucky.
They have a separate rate on your NET overage for the month. That is 80%. That’s mostly what you are storing for winter. Which the battery doesn’t even compete with.
It’s nearly impossible to figure this out from the bill. And I’m grandfathered in until 2041. And folks that had the earlier NetMetering was even better.
Guide To Net Metering In New Hampshire For 2023
New Hampshire's net metering program for solar homeowners is a pretty good deal, and you stand to save quite a bit of money. Find out everything you need to know about the state's NEM 2.0 program in our latest blog post.
www.solarreviews.com
Transformer
Do the math. Save the world. — Mark Leon
The electric utility might provide a free house battery for someone with a medical need for more reliable power.
BTW a device like a file server still needs a UPS to avoid a short break in the power when the solar system cuts over to the house battery.
I just read the first page. No comprehension of the economies at play here.
To my mind if you get a battery you can supply yourself at night. If you have enough sun and enough battery you wouldn't use hardly any power, but let's say zero, making your return your entire power bill less monthly connection fee.
I guess they must be paying really good money for your daytime generation. That's a good thing if it means investing in batteries is a complete waste of effort.
To my mind if you get a battery you can supply yourself at night. If you have enough sun and enough battery you wouldn't use hardly any power, but let's say zero, making your return your entire power bill less monthly connection fee.
I guess they must be paying really good money for your daytime generation. That's a good thing if it means investing in batteries is a complete waste of effort.
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