Don’t order SR or MR if your winter is cold.

[Nocturnal]

Honestly, "tricky" is even a strong word. I can guarantee you that on the super charger network, if you charge to 90% SOC in the Model 3 SR, you'll be able to make it to the next SC driving the speed limit, even in -40 weather, without worry for at least the first million kilometers of its life.

Yes, you will make it, you will just need to hit every one. But if you plan on doing many road trips buying the SR probably isn't the smart way to go.

It would be nice to see the stock battery gauge factor predict things better. On my first cold road trip (well first road trip overall) it was snowing and 15 degrees and I had to majorly adjust my charging plan because I was losing 1.5 to 1.75 miles on the battery indicator for each mile I drove.

Now, that's partly user error I (and I assume most others) don't watch the gauge in normal driving. If I had watched that normally I'd have already expected to lose 1.25 miles (made up number) and then wouldn't have been so shocked by losing 1.75.

It's going to take some time for all of us to reorient our heads around the EV driving compared to ICE.

 

[skrenes]

Were both kept in the garage for overnight? How long is your commute?

Both cars kept in unheated, uninsulated garage. But I do road trips and ski trips that leave the car outside the whole time. You have to remember that this is averaged data from each ~6000 km tire rotations and that short trips are the worst, but with 350 km of range in a Model 3 SR, that's a lot of short trips! For long trips, the economy is more like 10-15% worse in winter verses summer.

 

[Louiedog]

As you can see in my signature, I have a "classic" Model S P85+. I live in Calgary where we get as cold as -35˚C and 20-30cm snow dumps. I've always done tire rotations every ~6k km and track economy during that timespan. On my Acura TL, the winter fuel economy (14-14.5 L/100km) was always 30% higher than my summer (10.8-11 L/100km, which is better than EPA combined of 11.2 L/100km).

With my Model S, during the summer, I get 183-188 Wh/km and during winter I get 206-244 Wh/km depending drastically on how much snow is on the road. That's 10% to 33% more energy consumption, which is actually much better than the ICE! So people need to stop misusing the abundance of information the car gives you to delude yourself into thinking this is an EV problem. It's a winter issue that affects all cars.

As others have said, do a 15 minute preheat if it's cold. Not only is all that energy coming from shore power instead of the battery, but the internal resistance of the battery is dramatically reduced with heat. Having said that, that lost energy due to higher resistance creates heat in the battery cells! So your range is actually not that much reduced. Anyone saying the range loss is 50% (in a Tesla) is either speculating based on a rogue 5 minute trip with a cold soaked battery or they're trolling.

In the end, all this analysis doesn't even matter. Every car company on the planet has been jolted by Tesla's success, and every car company in the world is planning to shift their entire fleet to EV. ICE is dead.

 

[acoste]

Yes, you will make it, you will just need to hit every one. But if you plan on doing many road trips buying the SR probably isn't the smart way to go.

I agree here.
I think a 500 mile EV range is equivalent to a 300 mile range of ICE car when it comes to road trips. The reason why I'm saying that is because EV range is heavily influenced by elevation, vehicle speed and weather (not only temperature but rain and wind). It can totally screw up a road trip if this is not taken in account.

 

[Nocturnal]

I agree here.
I think a 500 mile EV range is equivalent to a 300 mile range of ICE car when it comes to road trips. The reason why I'm saying that is because EV range is heavily influenced by elevation, vehicle speed and weather (not only temperature but rain and wind). It can totally screw up a road trip if this is not taken in account.

People aren't wrong when they talk about how ICE cars take big hits too, but they do miss part of the point. People don't notice ICE rang drops because it isn't a worry, you can stop for 10 minutes and fill up at any of the hundreds thousands of stations out there. It's a trade I'm happy to make, but it isn't something that should be ignored.

 

[skrenes]

Yes, you will make it, you will just need to hit every one. But if you plan on doing many road trips buying the SR probably isn't the smart way to go.

It would be nice to see the stock battery gauge factor predict things better. On my first cold road trip (well first road trip overall) it was snowing and 15 degrees and I had to majorly adjust my charging plan because I was losing 1.5 to 1.75 miles on the battery indicator for each mile I drove.

Now, that's partly user error I (and I assume most others) don't watch the gauge in normal driving. If I had watched that normally I'd have already expected to lose 1.25 miles (made up number) and then wouldn't have been so shocked by losing 1.75.

It's going to take some time for all of us to reorient our heads around the EV driving compared to ICE.

Agreed on SR not being the way to go if you do a lot of long road trips. You can save your money, but if your time is valuable, get the bigger battery. You'll recover some of the loss in resale value too. I had the same dilemma when I was looking at a Model S 60 verses 85 battery and am very happy I went with the 85. Having said that, you can make a Model 3 SR work, you'll just be hitting every super charger and waiting a lot longer.

As a tip I suggest to everyone, change the battery indicator to percentage not rated range. Rated range is next to useless! With percentage you actually know how much is left in the battery. Also, you can do quick math to determine range. In my car, I multiply the percentage by 2 to 5 depending on conditions, using mostly 4 as a multiplier. So if I have 80% SOC, that's about 320 km of range on average. If it's a warm summer day and I'm on a slow highway, it's 400 km of range (multiply by 5). If there's a foot of snow on the roads and I'm coming back from skiing with a cold soaked battery in -20˚C weather and my SOC is 30%, then I have 60 km of range (multiply by 2). With a LR AWD Model 3 those multipliers are probably 3 to 7 with 5*SOC being rated range.

 

[Mick2811]

This FUD gets posted every winter.

Here is REAL WORLD data showing typical range loss of about:
40% below 0F (limited data, however)
30% 0-10F
20% 10-30F
10%-15% above 30F

 

[Mick2811]

This FUD gets posted every winter.

Here is REAL WORLD data showing typical range loss of about:
40% below 0F (limited data, however)
30% 0-10F
20% 10-30F
10%-15% above 30F

Thanks for posting REAL data...not just anecdotal statement. I live in NE Ohio and after a full winter I would state that these numbers reflect my experience. This is why I keep my battery meter on percentage charge setting (not mileage). Just like any ICE vehicle, real world conditions effect energy consumption. I just don't think it's as big of a deal as some here are making it sound.

 

[skrenes]

Btw, for those that don't know about this, this is very handy for trip planning:
EV Trip Planner
Once you're on the road, make sure you use the car's trip planner to predict the SOC when you arrive. I've found it to be super accurate once I'm driving (I tend to drive "spirited" so it takes a few minutes of driving before it lowers the SOC prediction ).

 

[Hobari]

I remember back when the Leaf first came out with an advertised range of 100 miles, an EPA estimated range, of 73 miles, and a "real" range in the winter of less than 50 miles (up in the mountains). I was hot on buying one and did a lot of research, during which I slowly realized that if I bought that vehicle, there would have been no way I could get from Denver to a ski resort and back in a day (my litmus test). So I bought an ICE vehicle and drove that for 7 years. Fast forward to 2018, and with my new M3 LR AWD, range is a big non-issue. Yes, there is some range degradation, but I haven't even tried to figure how great the % because there is so much excess capacity in range that it hardly matters to me. And for backup, there happens to be a supercharger in Silverthorne. Very hard for me to get worked up about this topic.

Just a little perspective here, and some props to Tesla for making a practical EV.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I'll add, in my MX I see about 40% loss around -20°F @ ~60mph. This information comes from a drive I make that's about 120 miles round trip. I start with a pre-warmed battery, and a cold soaked battery on the way back.

You will absolutely see lower efficiency on short drives with a cold battery, but then range isn't really an issue in such a situation.

 

[mswlogo]

Agreed on SR not being the way to go if you do a lot of long road trips. You can save your money, but if your time is valuable, get the bigger battery. You'll recover some of the loss in resale value too. I had the same dilemma when I was looking at a Model S 60 verses 85 battery and am very happy I went with the 85. Having said that, you can make a Model 3 SR work, you'll just be hitting every super charger and waiting a lot longer.

As a tip I suggest to everyone, change the battery indicator to percentage not rated range. Rated range is next to useless! With percentage you actually know how much is left in the battery. Also, you can do quick math to determine range. In my car, I multiply the percentage by 2 to 5 depending on conditions, using mostly 4 as a multiplier. So if I have 80% SOC, that's about 320 km of range on average. If it's a warm summer day and I'm on a slow highway, it's 400 km of range (multiply by 5). If there's a foot of snow on the roads and I'm coming back from skiing with a cold soaked battery in -20˚C weather and my SOC is 30%, then I have 60 km of range (multiply by 2). With a LR AWD Model 3 those multipliers are probably 3 to 7 with 5*SOC being rated range.

He shouldn’t have to “wait” any longer in total. He’ll just have to wait more often

It’s really a shame they no longer have the LR RWD. Which was probably the longest range Tesla that existed.

 

[Tribaltech]

OPs dogmatic statement may be true for short trips and extravagant heating behaviors.
I live in Colorado and see about a 15 - 20% hit in range on my 45 mile work commute. Longer drives would be less.

I am getting a feeling that the Model S and X owners are a much more patient and forgiving lot as compared to the new Model 3 owners. There was another post on this forum about how M3 owners are losing their cool at the Tesla service centers for things such as their AP not being turned on and such. Sigh.... they’re in for a world of hurt if that kind of stuff riles them.

 

[Nocturnal]

I am getting a feeling that the Model S and X owners are a much more patient and forgiving lot as compared to the new Model 3 owners. There was another post on this forum about how M3 owners are losing their cool at the Tesla service centers for things such as their AP not being turned on and such. Sigh.... they’re in for a world of hurt if that kind of stuff riles them.

That was 1 service center in Boston. I don't think we can say that 3 owners are materially different than S owners.

 

[mswlogo]

I am getting a feeling that the Model S and X owners are a much more patient and forgiving lot as compared to the new Model 3 owners. There was another post on this forum about how M3 owners are losing their cool at the Tesla service centers for things such as their AP not being turned on and such. Sigh.... they’re in for a world of hurt if that kind of stuff riles them.

Keep in mind we don’t know the whole history on that. Maybe their car was rescheduled for delivery 3 times. And they due for some body work repairs, and they were promised AP would be working before they signed etc.

But I have seen some ridiculous posts on this forum about expectations. Crazy reasons for rejects. It reminds me of smartphone forums where folks would return their $500 phones 6 times for ridiculous stuff. Same crowd now buying Tesla’s.

I think part of the issue is these forums. Where things just get amplified.

 

[mike123abc]

95% of my miles are highway. Yes highway speeds here are 75MPH. 19" AWD. So, my 310 EPA miles are really 252 after 4000 miles (assuming 75 kwatt battery). Most of the temps range from 35-80 for the last two months.

As you can see by my trip I am averaging about 60MPH and it is 53 degrees. What is going on that my mileage is now 188 on a full charge? Rain is the answer. Rain running almost 40% off EPA. But to be fair really only 26% reduction in my average real world economy.

There is a supercharger right by my work. But as you can see it is 45 miles away I arrived just barely (I slowed down to 55 MPH for the last part of the trip & rain stopped) and had about 14 miles left. There is a supercharger right by work... So, I would barely make it to the supercharger but would have ended up passing about 15 gas stations on the way.

This is a big adjustment from ICE. On ICE the consumer knows that the EPA miles are fiction, but they really do not have to worry about it since there is always a gas station near. And if they are getting low they will stop at the next one. In this case the choice is either make it or get a tow. Maybe get creative and find an RV park or something for a few hours -- hardly what one expects from a car (which I had to already do once due to 50 mile road closure detour).

Do not get me wrong, I had researched this a lot before buying. The model 3 has come in just slightly below what I had figured on mileage (I was thinking 265 and it has been going 252). But, I did not expect that big a hit from rain.

But, if you are the average consumer walking into the showroom and see a range, you probably think that you will not make that range since EPA numbers have always been off. But, it will be reasonably close and not even think about how weather can hurt. One never had to worry about with the gas car, most I know do not know how many MPG their ICE cars get or the actual range, they only know how often they fill and how much it costs.

 

[acoste]

..
But I have seen some ridiculous posts on this forum about expectations. Crazy reasons for rejects. It reminds me of smartphone forums where folks would return their $500 phones 6 times for ridiculous stuff. Same crowd now buying Tesla’s.

I think part of the issue is these forums. Where things just get amplified.

I think it is Elon, who created illusions.

 

[mswlogo]

I think it is Elon, who created illusions.

Yeah that doesn’t help either.

 

[swood7]

Is 50% real for the Model 3?

In our S it's more like 30% at sub zero. The worst we've seen was a couple of times when we were driving against a heavy rain/sleet storm with high and pretty constant head winds. In that case our consumption went up by about 80%, so about a 45% reduction. We had to drive about 300 miles in that, so we wound up charging a couple of times.

One thing about very cold (<10F) weather is that when you start out after the car has been cold soaked, the battery state looks terrifyingly low. However, it does recover quite a bit after it warms up. Another nasty effect is that the car won't accept much charge until the battery warms. We've found that it's better to drive around for 20 minutes to warm up the battery, then plug into a Supercharger, rather than plug in when the battery is still cold.

A welcome tip to echo this post: I ran into a Model S owner (two years) at the Supercharger in Wichita over Thanksgiving weekend. He shared that if you're on a road trip and headed to an overnight stay, it's wise to charge the car upon arrival, while it's warm and not wait until the morning, when the battery will be cold.

 

[ZeApelido]

Is it rain or wind?