Elon & Twitter

[Buckminster]

<nods>

A hybrid model is best. Reddit uses a downvote to oblivion model but also requires human moderators. Simply having an algorithm quarantine/remove a post from prominence is easy to disregard. But in my years volunteering as a moderator here, I have learned a lot about how people respond to a human being approaching them about their behavior or posting style. Hard methods (silently banning) are rarely effective long-term. Explaining why certain behaviors are disruptive to the flow of dialogue and the culture at TMC is often, but not always, much more effective.

I think using algorithms to reduce the prominence of certain types of content is a good idea that will lessen the requirement of a moderation team. There are some types of content that might be "liked" heavily, though, and that might encourage violence or doxxing of individuals, etc. That kind of thing is best reviewed by a group of human moderators, at least for now. Once FSD is complete, we can talk about the job of having AI moderate without human intervention.


This seems to be the kind of thing that can be easily gamed. Not disliked? Everything is disliked online, you'd never see a single tweet! What about if they choose to say "not disliked by anyone you follow"? That seems on the surface to help, but in my opinion it only strengthens and further isolates our silos. Reddit suffers from this as well, as was pointed out upthread. If you're in /r/RealTesla on reddit, you post something positive about Elon and get downvoted into oblivion. If you're on /r/Tesla on reddit, you post something negative about Elon and get downvoted into oblivion. People just subscribe to what confirms their biases and makes them feel stronger in their opinions until they become calcified. I think it's better to have more open discussions, but that will require human intervention.

These won't be simple algorithms - most likely NNs.

Process could be something like:

1. Does NN assume this tweet is safe based upon the author and content? - If so, go step 6)
2. Allow followers of the individual only to read then
3. If number of up votes exceed downvotes by x then
4. Allow Y% of no holds barred users to read then
5. If number of up votes exceed downvotes by z then (NN can look at whether the votes come from users with a good track record on previous voting versus moderation)
6. Release to all users based upon it's popularity versus other tweets available at the time and in accordance to the user's preferences regarding similar tweets (all NN based decision making)

This way 99% of users won't see anything they don't want to see.

 

[ElectricIAC]

These won't be simple algorithms - most likely NNs.

Process could be something like:

1. Does NN assume this tweet is safe based upon the author? - If so, go step 6)
2. Allow followers of the individual only to read then
3. If number of up votes exceed downvotes by x then
4. Allow Y% of no holds barred users to read then
5. If number of up votes exceed downvotes by z then
6. Release to all users based upon it's popularity versus other tweets available at the time

This way 99% of users won't see anything they don't want to see.

This seems like the most sane way to go about it (Twitter only has heart button though no downvote)

 

[dm28997]

I see a nice change in Twitter already(or is it called X). No more hummer ads and fewer repetitive posts.
I have been using twitter after I quit reading reuters bloomberg, nytimes, latimes, etc. to get factual news.
What a nice change. We are in an enormous paradigm shift as Tony Seba has been saying. In addition the financial changes with crypto will be coming sooner than many thought possible. Less conflict and more facts will be appreciated.
Congrats Elon and hopefully more humor and less hate along with positive news. Thanks.

 

[_Redshift_]

There are two additional social media models that differ from Facebook, Twitter, etc.. Nextdoor divides its universe into geographic neighborhoods. Nextdoor's address verification requirement supposedly increases trust, but also reduces privacy. Real names are also required. Users police each neighborhood and report violations of the site rules. Specific users designated as reviewers vote to either keep or remove flagged posts. IMO, Nextdoor is quite orderly compared to Twitter and is much closer to the Town Hall concept.

The other is represented by reddit, which is divided into topic-centric subreddits, each with its own moderators. Each sub has a narrow focus and tone, but if a user doesn't want to read the sub because the information might be offensive, the user just doesn't join the sub. Discord works in a similar fashion.

Twitter has neither topic nor geographic stratification and thus moderation is challenging. It is also rife with bots. Maybe the Twitter model is what doesn't scale properly.

Regarding Nextdoor- I’m on it. No actual address, just an area and I don’t have my real name.

I rarely post and rarely read the posts. I do get the emails with cryptic text of the posts though.

BTW that’s also a big cess pool, people mostly complain about a theft or wildlife. You don’t engage in it every single day.

 

[ohmman]

This way 99% of users won't see anything they don't want to see.

This definitely creates impenetrable silos.

 

[ElectricIAC]

This definitely creates impenetrable silos.

People are going to gravitate toward what speaks to them and shy away or repudiate what doesn’t.

It’s human nature.

 

[mongo]

This definitely creates impenetrable silos.

Switching your view from Top to Latest is already a silo. Only things you see are posts or retweets from those you follow. Top adds in Tweets from 2nd level accounts and likes from your 1st level.

 

[Buckminster]

This definitely creates impenetrable silos.

I think that popularity of a post would be balanced by preference. You could maybe have a dial as a user:

80% popular tweets to 20% silo tweets or vice versa

If you follow 100 users, do you want to see popular tweets from those you do not follow first? - another dial.

 

[dm28997]

Nice discussion here on potential changes for user based information. A new type of news media is scarring the sh... out of the incumbents. I recall how President Obama used the internet to get funds and become President twice.
The more I peruse this topic the better it looks. Don't bet against Elon.

 

[STS-134]

People are going to gravitate toward what speaks to them and shy away or repudiate what doesn’t.

It’s human nature.

That's the big problem with social media. These companies try to do what is necessary to keep you on the site for as long as possible because this is what generates profits for them. Because of human nature, the best way to do this is to create an echo chamber. But echo chambers are bad for society and do not ever represent any conditions you could have in real life (where there are checks and balances against extremism):

There's one big problem, of course. In most Western countries, there is constitutional freedom of speech and the government is not allowed to outlaw echo chambers despite them being bad for society. Companies can crack down on them of course, but as long as they're being motivated by profits, which every publicly traded company has to be, they have no reason to and would be sued by their investors if they did anything except what generates the maximum value for shareholders.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Regarding Nextdoor- I’m on it. No actual address, just an area and I don’t have my real name.

I rarely post and rarely read the posts. I do get the emails with cryptic text of the posts though.

BTW that’s also a big cess pool, people mostly complain about a theft or wildlife. You don’t engage in it every single day.

Nextdoor is a massive Karens-complaining-about-stuff collective. I have never seen so many "suspicious vehicle" and "strange man walking around" reports in my life, and I literally live right on the street with these people. It must be so cool to not have to work and have enough time to obsess over everything you see while peeking out the front window all day long.

Anyhow, getting back to TWTR and Elon - my best case scenario is he tries his hopelessly naieve free-speech-absolutism, it explodes into what it always does, the advertisers flee because they don't want to be associated, and Elon's one useful trait kicks in where he learns from failure and adapts to bring in some of the kinds of serious moderation which are needed to make a successful online posting forum work. Heck he might actually read some of Facebook's white papers on the topic - I don't like Zuck but his people have a decade of deep experience on this exact subject.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Nextdoor is a massive Karens-complaining-about-stuff collective. I have never seen so many "suspicious vehicle" and "strange man walking around" reports in my life, and I literally live right on the street with these people. It must be so cool to not have to work and have enough time to obsess over everything you see while peeking out the front window all day long.

Anyhow, getting back to TWTR and Elon - my best case scenario is he tries his hopelessly naieve free-speech-absolutism, it explodes into what it always does, the advertisers flee because they don't want to be associated, and Elon's one useful trait kicks in where he learns from failure and adapts to bring in some of the kinds of serious moderation which are needed to make a successful online posting forum work. Heck he might actually read some of Facebook's white papers on the topic - I don't like Zuck but his people have a decade of deep experience on this exact subject.

Screw the advertisers if they can’t hang with the first amendment.

Turn it into a pay to play where you pay to tweet at the most influential accounts (like locals)

 

[STS-134]

Screw the advertisers if they can’t hang with the first amendment.

The First Amendment protects the advertisers. Which platforms they choose to advertise on is their free speech and the government can't restrict that speech.

The fact of the matter is, there's a lot of speech that is perfectly legal but the vast majority of people find distasteful, and as a result, advertisers do not want to be associated with it. Distasteful speech is bad for business.

 

[Rarity]

Regarding advertisers, I'm still seeing Amazon, IBM, and the pharmaceutical association advertisements. So at least some companies are not sitting it out right now.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Nextdoor is a massive Karens-complaining-about-stuff collective. I have never seen so many "suspicious vehicle" and "strange man walking around" reports in my life, and I literally live right on the street with these people. It must be so cool to not have to work and have enough time to obsess over everything you see while peeking out the front window all day long.

Anyhow, getting back to TWTR and Elon - my best case scenario is he tries his hopelessly naieve free-speech-absolutism, it explodes into what it always does, the advertisers flee because they don't want to be associated, and Elon's one useful trait kicks in where he learns from failure and adapts to bring in some of the kinds of serious moderation which are needed to make a successful online posting forum work. Heck he might actually read some of Facebook's white papers on the topic - I don't like Zuck but his people have a decade of deep experience on this exact subject.

Eeek, Karen's! If that's the worst thing about Nextdoor, give me that platform any day over a Twitter that could be overflowing with racism and hate.

BTW, Elon bought Twitter for the money it can generate. Whether it be by either advertising or by membership fees, he'll turn a profit. That's the only case scenario.

 

[eleison]

"Free Speech" sounds great until you consider the real world. It's fine when anybody who wants to can stand on a soap box on the street corner and shout that the world is flat or that Jesus is coming back to smite the sinners.

It's a totally different thing in a world of calculated lies spread by highly-organized and well-funded propagandists, where conspiracy mongers make patently false claims of election fraud, where broadcasters with followings in six figures shout that the parents of murdered children are hoaxing the nation, where social media is used to organize an attempted overthrow of the government, etc., etc., etc.

If Elon Musk really does throw open the doors of Twitter to unmoderated free speech, the result will be the greatest destabilization of Democracy since Facebook. The prospect terrifies me.

Trust me Elon's going to moderate Twitter. People always say they are going to allow free speech but 99.9999% of the time, they don't allow it.

Why do you think the founding fathers explicitly wrote about it in the American constitution after fighting a war where there was a good chance they would all be hung by a superior super power.

See he's already talking about a Facebook style moderation board.

Elon Musk Promises Facebook-Style 'Moderation Council' to Make Content and Ban Decisions at Twitter

New Chief Twit Elon Musk announced Friday that he will be allowing some content moderation to happen at Twitter after all — but it won't be staff doing it, it will be an independent "content moderation council" like Facebook has.

sfist.com

I'm sure he will censor whatever he feels is bad for society as he sees fit. Just like Facebook. So yeah, rejoice. Twitter will be moderated. Don't worry about that.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Trust me Elon's going to moderate Twitter. People always say they are going to allow free speech but 99.9999% of the time, they don't allow it.

Why do you think the founding fathers explicitly wrote about it in the American constitution after fighting a war where there was a good chance they would all be hung by a superior super power.

See he's already talking about a Facebook style moderation board.

Elon Musk Promises Facebook-Style 'Moderation Council' to Make Content and Ban Decisions at Twitter

New Chief Twit Elon Musk announced Friday that he will be allowing some content moderation to happen at Twitter after all — but it won't be staff doing it, it will be an independent "content moderation council" like Facebook has.

sfist.com

I'm sure he will censor whatever he feels is bad for society as he sees fit. Just like Facebook. So yeah, rejoice. Twitter will be moderated. Don't worry about that.

Moderation isn’t the problem. It’s the equal, and fair application of said moderation that matters.

 

[_Redshift_]

Screw the advertisers if they can’t hang with the first amendment.

Turn it into a pay to play where you pay to tweet at the most influential accounts (like locals)

And see how quickly people head to the exits.

 

[eleison]

Moderation isn’t the problem. It’s the equal, and fair application of said moderation that matters.

Slippy slope. Who defines equal and fair? Can Elon define it? Remember Vivjaja Gadde once was the one who use to define it before she got fired. She had no oversight at all.

Perhaps you would be like to be one that gets to define it? What about others that disagree with you?

Regardless, imho there will be censorship. It will not be fair... just like before, but now there's a new "king".

Those that like this king will be happy, those that liked the old king will not. Same old, same old..

 

[eleison]

And see how quickly people head to the exits.

Where are they going to go? Facebook? Cable news? YouTube? Gab.com? Rumble? Msnbc.com? Cnn.com?

Websites like Twitter (pre Elon) are dying. Or have died.