How Green is EV ownership

[Blue heaven]

How green is EV ownership? | CarAdvice

Keep in mind that John Cadogan is a master of getting clicks, content and facts are not important if it gets in the way of antagonizing the readers.

 

[Mark E]

How green is EV ownership? | CarAdvice

Keep in mind that John Cadogan is a master of getting clicks, content and facts are not important if it gets in the way of antagonizing the readers.

Don’t do that moron any favours by clicking on anything he produces.

 

[meloccom]

Pleasingly it looks like the comments are taking John Cadogen to task.

 

[Tension]

I thought his article was ok. He makes a somewhat reasonable point about emissions right now, but the way I see it, the increasing demand for electric vehicles will drive increased demand for renewables (and I think it already is), and it all has to start somewhere.

 

[Mark E]

I thought his article was ok. He makes a somewhat reasonable point about emissions right now, but the way I see it, the increasing demand for electric vehicles will drive increased demand for renewables (and I think it already is), and it all has to start somewhere.

Even powered from coal and taking into account the extra resources to build the battery, an EV is better than an ICE car.
In W.A. AEVA did a test with a diesel and a model S charged from a diesel generator. The Tesla even won that!

Then you need to look at what happens as the grid gets better - the EV improves but the ICE gets worse with wear...

Tesla vs Volvo -

Electric Cars Release Less CO2 Over Lifetime Than Diesel Cars Even When Powered By Dirtiest Electricity In EU | CleanTechnica

 

[Uncle Paul]

A major benefit of EV travel is that it moves the pollution away from densely packed urban areas to power plants far away from people. It allows the emissions to be diluted so it does not make people ill.

As an example, put an idling ICE vehicle in one closed garage and an idling EV in another. See which garage will be the healthiest.

There is also a movement away from coal fired generators to cleaner natural gas, solar, wind and water. As this evolves further the world will begin to clean itself up.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Actually I did the calculations from first-principle physics, because I was going to write an scathing comment, but annoyingly I think he has a point.
I've since discarded my calculations, but basically if my power was coming from 100% coal, it was exactly the same CO2 and weight of fuel as my old diesel SUV.
I'm with AGL (on their $1/day plan) and they own the two Hunter power plants (Lidell and Bayswater) which are 4.4 GW, and they have a few wind farms and solar farms that total well under 0.5 GW.
I can take some solace that I'm not pumping pollution and particulates in my immediate locale.

But, Australia is truly hopeless in it's energy generation. We use more coal now than ever before. Poor old Malcolm gets toppled just for trying to get even a half-arsed emission reduction scheme through.
Sigh ... getting depressed ...

 

[Ludalicious]

LOL The world is moving towards renewable energy.

"Close to 95% of BC's electricity here in Canada is generated from renewables. Its renewable capacity is more than 16 000 MW, representing approximately 90% of total installed capacity. Hydro remains the most important source of power generation, followed by biomass, natural gas, wind, and oil"

Here's another fun fact.

My old vehicle ran on 94 premium only due to the tune and HP of the engine. Finding the right gas station can be a pain in with butt forsure. Not as easy as one thinks finding a gas station. especially on road trips.
The Tesla that replaced my old Ice vehicle is Faster and I have already saved 8,000 in gas in 7 months. That doesn't include any maintenance brakes ect. Add in another few grand for kicks. That's not exaggerating either. High performance vehicles cost a boat load to maintain.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it TIPS!

 

[wdolson]

Actually I did the calculations from first-principle physics, because I was going to write an scathing comment, but annoyingly I think he has a point.
I've since discarded my calculations, but basically if my power was coming from 100% coal, it was exactly the same CO2 and weight of fuel as my old diesel SUV.
I'm with AGL (on their $1/day plan) and they own the two Hunter power plants (Lidell and Bayswater) which are 4.4 GW, and they have a few wind farms and solar farms that total well under 0.5 GW.
I can take some solace that I'm not pumping pollution and particulates in my immediate locale.

But, Australia is truly hopeless in it's energy generation. We use more coal now than ever before. Poor old Malcolm gets toppled just for trying to get even a half-arsed emission reduction scheme through.
Sigh ... getting depressed ...

But you also have to look at how much of the energy from the coal gets to the wheels vs how much of the energy in the diesel gets to the wheels. The best ICE are maybe 30% efficient at converting fossil fuels to motion. Most of the time it's more like 15-20%. With electricity from a coal powered power plant going into an EV, it's more like 65% considering losses in generation, transmission, charging, and driving.

Coal is the dirtiest energy source for generating electricity, but it is dying out because other fuels are cheaper. Australia doesn't have much in the way of oil and gas reserves, so you don't have the advantage North America has with natural gas. It's natural gas, not renewables that are killing coal in the US. It's a far easier fuel to use, burns cleaner, and North America is awash in it thanks to the oil and gas boom.

Australia does have the advantage of being a sparsely populated continent with a lot of sun. With storage farms and large solar farms, Australia can replace most of its fossil fuel plants over the next 10-20 years.

Basically driving an EV right now is as environmentally bad as it's going to get. ICE tech has pretty much topped out on efficiency and cleanliness.

 

[Tasdoc]

Actually I did the calculations from first-principle physics, because I was going to write an scathing comment, but annoyingly I think he has a point.
I've since discarded my calculations, but basically if my power was coming from 100% coal, it was exactly the same CO2 and weight of fuel as my old diesel SUV.
I'm with AGL (on their $1/day plan) and they own the two Hunter power plants (Lidell and Bayswater) which are 4.4 GW, and they have a few wind farms and solar farms that total well under 0.5 GW.
I can take some solace that I'm not pumping pollution and particulates in my immediate locale.

But, Australia is truly hopeless in it's energy generation. We use more coal now than ever before. Poor old Malcolm gets toppled just for trying to get even a half-arsed emission reduction scheme through.
Sigh ... getting depressed ...

The CO2 emission figures for ICE cars in the article are based on the ADR 81/02 test, which is essentially same as the NEDC test. And if you look at the NEDC figures for Model S, it would be about 145-150 Wh/Km. In Victoria it means at least 30% lower CO2 emission than an ICE car of similar size/performance.

 

[Blue heaven]

But you also have to look at how much of the energy from the coal gets to the wheels vs how much of the energy in the diesel gets to the wheels. The best ICE are maybe 30% efficient at converting fossil fuels to motion. Most of the time it's more like 15-20%. With electricity from a coal powered power plant going into an EV, it's more like 65% considering losses in generation, transmission, charging, and driving.

Coal is the dirtiest energy source for generating electricity, but it is dying out because other fuels are cheaper. Australia doesn't have much in the way of oil and gas reserves, so you don't have the advantage North America has with natural gas. It's natural gas, not renewables that are killing coal in the US. It's a far easier fuel to use, burns cleaner, and North America is awash in it thanks to the oil and gas boom.

Australia does have the advantage of being a sparsely populated continent with a lot of sun. With storage farms and large solar farms, Australia can replace most of its fossil fuel plants over the next 10-20 years.

Basically driving an EV right now is as environmentally bad as it's going to get. ICE tech has pretty much topped out on efficiency and cleanliness.

Just to clarify @wdolson Australia has very little viable oil reserves but has enormous gas reserves, most of that offshore, the problem is that the East coast with 90% of the population is not getting a fair go, most of its gas is shipped overseas, on the other hand the West coast that has only 10% of the population has rules in place that provides the domestic market with a reasonable share of gas at a reasonable price.

 

[wdolson]

Just to clarify @wdolson Australia has very little viable oil reserves but has enormous gas reserves, most of that offshore, the problem is that the East coast with 90% of the population is not getting a fair go, most of its gas is shipped overseas, on the other hand the West coast that has only 10% of the population has rules in place that provides the domestic market with a reasonable share of gas at a reasonable price.

I wasn't aware Australia had any significant gas reserves. Geologically Australia is mostly made up of some of the oldest rock in the world, which doesn't lend itself to a lot of oil. Most of the world's oil comes from the Permian Extinction.

I know Australia has been doing better than a lot of countries in the last couple of decades exporting a lot of natural resources, but that has begun to slow down. A lot of that extraction has been going on in the west.

The oil companies have been trying to get liquefied natural gas terminals built so they can export the natural gas, but there has been a lot of NIMBY attitudes around the country stopping them. One in Oregon has been a hot political issue for a while.

There was also an attempt to build an oil export terminal in our county to take oil from the Bakkan and export it. The last county board race became one of the most expensive in US history as a candidate heavily backed by the oil lobby was up against someone opposed to the terminal. The oil lobby guy lost.

 

[Shock-On-T]

The CO2 emission figures for ICE cars in the article are based on the ADR 81/02 test, which is essentially same as the NEDC test. And if you look at the NEDC figures for Model S, it would be about 145-150 Wh/Km. In Victoria it means at least 30% lower CO2 emission than an ICE car of similar size/performance.

I did the exact calculations based on my own vehicles, and their actual usage over at least 80,000kms.
Tesla S75D at 188Wh/km, and Kia Sorento 2.2D at 8.2l/100km.
0.538kg of coal for 1kWh.
Coal makes 2.38kg CO2 per kg burned (bituminous).
Diesel makes 3.15kg CO2 per kg burned.

Tesla was 0.101kg of coal per km (0.24kg CO2/km)
Sorento was 0.082l of diesel per km (0.258kg CO2/km)

Practically identical. In fact power line transmission losses are estimated 8-15%, and charging is also not 100% efficient.
Luckily the Hunter stations use bituminous coal, anthracite coal is 50% more CO2.

The ONLY solution is to get away from coal power.

 

[Shock-On-T]

But you also have to look at how much of the energy from the coal gets to the wheels vs how much of the energy in the diesel gets to the wheels. The best ICE are maybe 30% efficient at converting fossil fuels to motion. Most of the time it's more like 15-20%. With electricity from a coal powered power plant going into an EV, it's more like 65% considering losses in generation, transmission, charging, and driving.

Coal is the dirtiest energy source for generating electricity, but it is dying out because other fuels are cheaper. Australia doesn't have much in the way of oil and gas reserves, so you don't have the advantage North America has with natural gas. It's natural gas, not renewables that are killing coal in the US. It's a far easier fuel to use, burns cleaner, and North America is awash in it thanks to the oil and gas boom.

Australia does have the advantage of being a sparsely populated continent with a lot of sun. With storage farms and large solar farms, Australia can replace most of its fossil fuel plants over the next 10-20 years.

Basically driving an EV right now is as environmentally bad as it's going to get. ICE tech has pretty much topped out on efficiency and cleanliness.

No, because the 8.2l/100km in the diesel is AFTER all the inefficiencies are taken out.
And the 0.538kg/kWh for bituminous coal is AFTER all the inefficiences are taken out (except transmission and charging loss, which makes the case even worse).

You Sorento literally burns 8.2 litres to go 100km.
And my S75D burns 10.1kg of bituminous coal to go 100km.
That's what I burned, on average, for 140,000kms of driving in the Sorento.
In my Tesla S75D I've averaged 188Wh/km in 80,000kms of driving.

I COMPLETELY agree that there's no harm in getting the EV now, and fixing the energy source later. But the numbers for my own cars show that my Tesla S75D emits roughly the same CO2 per kilometre as my old Sorento 2.2D, so long as I get my electricity from the Bayswater and Lidell plants in the Hunter, which I unfortunately do.

 

[wdolson]

No, because the 8.2l/100km in the diesel is AFTER all the inefficiencies are taken out.
And the 0.538kg/kWh for bituminous coal is AFTER all the inefficiences are taken out (except transmission and charging loss, which makes the case even worse).

You Sorento literally burns 8.2 litres to go 100km.
And my S75D burns 10.1kg of bituminous coal to go 100km.
That's what I burned, on average, for 140,000kms of driving in the Sorento.
In my Tesla S75D I've averaged 188Wh/km in 80,000kms of driving.

I COMPLETELY agree that there's no harm in getting the EV now, and fixing the energy source later. But the numbers for my own cars show that my Tesla S75D emits roughly the same CO2 per kilometre as my old Sorento 2.2D, so long as I get my electricity from the Bayswater and Lidell plants in the Hunter, which I unfortunately do.

OK, good point, though the Sorento is smaller and lighter. There probably is at least a bit of an advantage between two vehicles of similar size and weight, one with a diesel and the other electric.

 

[EcoCloudIT]

@ShockOnT have you taken in to account the much higher cost to get oil out of the ground/sea, refined (and all those expenses in refining), transported via dirty ships and then transported by trucks to your petrol station (all the CO2 in running petrol station, including running the AC/lights at the petrol station etc.) vs digging coal up, transporting it locally to a Power Station and to your home?

Both have CO2 on this count, however coal is far lower....I'm not in support of coal however less CO2 is produced when charging an electric car with electricity created by coal than emitted via an ICE/fuel...

Anyhow, I have my 5 referrals now so getting a PW2 and roof top solar...will charge my Model S and the wife's X via the sun hopefully soon...now I need another 5 referrals (need 2x PW2's )

 

[Shock-On-T]

@EcoCloudIT no I haven't tried to work out the "well-to-pump" side of the equation, too complicated (for me).
But I also didn't factor in the approx 10% charging inefficiency, and the approximate 10% power line losses.
Even if it's substantially more expensive (in energy) to ship fuel than coal, the difference would surely be in the ball park of 20% total energy.

Either way, it's still roughly equivalent, so long as we are charging with coal-generated electricity.

This has been an eye-opener for me, because I've been proud of the volume of diesel I've saved, and now I realise there's a very similar sized pile of coal in its place.

There a many advantages of EVs, especially their 'fuel' flexibility, but this really highlights how important it is that we shift our nation's generation away from coal.

BTW how the heck did you get 5 referrals? I've never had one!

 

[Blue heaven]

@EcoCloudIT no I haven't tried to work out the "well-to-pump" side of the equation, too complicated (for me).
But I also didn't factor in the approx 10% charging inefficiency, and the approximate 10% power line losses.
Even if it's substantially more expensive (in energy) to ship fuel than coal, the difference would surely be in the ball park of 20% total energy.

Either way, it's still roughly equivalent, so long as we are charging with coal-generated electricity.

This has been an eye-opener for me, because I've been proud of the volume of diesel I've saved, and now I realise there's a very similar sized pile of coal in its place.

There a many advantages of EVs, especially their 'fuel' flexibility, but this really highlights how important it is that we shift our nation's generation away from coal.

BTW how the heck did you get 5 referrals? I've never had one!

Even if EV v ICE is borderline as far as CO2 your still playing a part in reducing local air pollution, build up areas in Australia may not be as bad as some parts of Europe and Asia but are still adding a huge cost to our citizens health, if we added $800 to every yearly ICE car rego to cover the the message may get across quicker.

 

[Tasdoc]

@ShockOnT
You can change your retailer. Just pick the one that owns only, or mostly renewable assets:
Homepage - The Green Electricity Guide

 

[ChrsiH314]

The myth that electric cars are more polluting over the lifetime of the car because of coal-produced electricity has been thoroughly debunked several times. Here is a paper that is as good as any https://www.afdc.energy.gov/uploads/publication/ev_emissions_impact.pdf . This includes a scenario of a 93% coal powered grid.