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Israel/Hamas conflict

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I live near Portland, OR. The nearest university is a branch campus of Washington State that is, as far as I know, 100% commuter. There are no protests going on anywhere in the Northwest as far as I can tell.

The nearest protest apparently is at Cal Poly Humbolt. When did Cal State Humbolt become a Cal Poly? ( I went to Cal Poly SLO.)

This is the most comprehensive map I've seen
https://www.axios.com/2024/04/27/palestinian-college-protest-arrest-encampment

The bulk of the protests appear to be in the Northeast.

A historian named Colin Woodward has written a few books on the different cultures that make up the US. His first book is entitled "American Nations". Recommended to me by one of the moderators here. It explains a lot about how the US got to be the way it is. Most of the Northeast is what he calls the "Yankee" culture which is probably the most idealistic of the US cultures. The Left Coast culture that runs along the coast in California and along I-5 through Oregon and Washington and then on up the Canadian west coast to Juneau is related to the Yankee culture, though it more libertarian and independent.
Oregon was founded to be whites only. That's covered? I'll check the book out. I'm not always patient with non-fiction political books. I tend to find that they make their point then just keep going and going.

I am hesitant to take the word from somebody online about what's actually going on.
 
Oregon was founded to be whites only. That's covered? I'll check the book out. I'm not always patient with non-fiction political books. I tend to find that they make their point then just keep going and going.

I am hesitant to take the word from somebody online about what's actually going on.

Oregon was founded as whites only, but that is pretty diluted there today. Most of the population is west of the Cascades and most of it is very anti-racist. In some places going a bit too far to the politically correct end of the scale.

American Nations is not about politics, it's about the cultures and their histories. It touches a bit on historical politics, but doesn't talk about modern politics. His second book on the subject American Character is more about the political angle.

Ultimately we have to believe someone about somethings because we can't check everything out for ourselves firsthand.
 
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A joint submission from four bureaus - Democracy Human Rights & Labor; Population, Refugees and Migration; Global Criminal Justice and International Organization Affairs – raised "serious concern over non-compliance" with international humanitarian law during Israel's prosecution of the Gaza war.
The assessment from the four bureaus said Israel's assurances were "neither credible nor reliable." It cited eight examples of Israeli military actions that the officials said raise "serious questions" about potential violations of international humanitarian law.


Oh dear, I wonder what we are going to be told by Israel's cheerleaders why these opinions by the State Department's own specialized departments shouldn't be taken seriously? Perhaps the authors are all anti-semites? They are too young? Uneducated? Don't know what they are talking about? Perhaps they are Germans?

This damning assessment fits unpleaasantly well with Blinken's previous unwillingness to take any action because of Israel's human rights violations:

A special State Department panel told Secretary of State Antony Blinken that the U.S. should restrict arms sales to Israeli military units that have been credibly accused of human rights abuses. He has not taken any action.

A special State Department panel recommended months ago that Secretary of State Antony Blinken disqualify multiple Israeli military and police units from receiving U.S. aid after reviewing allegations that they committed serious human rights abuses.

But Blinken has failed to act on the proposal in the face of growing international criticism of the Israeli military’s conduct in Gaza, according to current and former State Department officials.


So much for the Biden administration's willingness to comply with the law, let alone with US obligations towards upholding human rights standards. It's certainly much more important to have peaceful student protesters arrested.
 
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Journalism is changing. The state of "mainstream" journalism in print media, TV, and radio is declining. There is a new journalism cropping up online which is a mixed bag. Some of it is very good while others are propaganda channels pumping garbage into the media stream. Some online media sources are getting more views per day than the highest rated cable channels.

Every generation has made mistakes with educating their young and somehow we've always managed to muddle through. Maybe someday we will make a critical mistake that blows up everything, but claiming the youth are all screwed up has been going on for many generations. The people saying it now had it said about them when they were young.

A human's brain isn't fully mature until about age 25. As a result kids do stupid things and have done so as long as humans have been around.



I saw something in the last couple of days from someone who is there in New York and has some connection to Columbia. There are two groups of protestors. The students do have an encampment in the cloistered part of campus that only students and staff normally go. They are making too much noise, but that's about the peak problem with their protest.

Columbia also has a gate to New York proper which off campus students use to get to school. That gate has attracted a large number of non-students who are camping out around the gate and are the most belligerent. The incident the other day in which a Hasidic Jewish student was verbally attacked happened when the student was trying to get on campus at that gate. The attacker was a non-student.

Columbia is going to online classes because their off campus students are saying they don't feel safe running the gauntlet of non-student protesters at the gate.

At least some of these non-students might be "professional" agitators who are trying to amp up the protests and turn it into a serious problem for the election. There are some people who want a repeat of 1968 because that helped Nixon get elected. In that game the students are just patsies.

Most of the media coverage is at that gate too. Even if there aren't any professional agitators trying to stir up trouble, there is every crazy in the New York area who wants to be on TV there causing whatever trouble they can to get attention to themselves.

The media who wants there to be juicy stories that get people to tune in are also amping up any conflict to get attention to their outlets. I have seen a few professors at different schools talk about the protests. Some campuses have no protests at all, but the ones that do the number of protestors who are students are a small percentage of the actual student body. Where possible a lot of locals who are not students are bulking up the numbers. Whether the locals are just well meaning people or include some people there to cause trouble, I don't know, but this is not just students protesting. At best only half the protesters are students.

The bulk of students at these schools are just trying to do what students normally do: get to class, study, hang out with some friends, prepare for their summer internship, etc.

The protests over Israel/Palestine are tiny compared to the Vietnam War protests. Which makes sense. Most people aren't going to get worked up about something unless they have a dog in the fight. During Vietnam the men on college campuses were facing the prospect of being drafted and sent to Vietnam. They could get deferments, but they still faced the risk of going when they got out of college. The women were seeing their boyfriends, husbands, brothers, and friends at risk of going to war.

The situation right now has no risk at all for Americans. It's an ideological protest which is only going to draw ideologues. The rest of the students have other, more pressing things on their minds. The media is hyping this because it help their ratings.
As if many traditional media weren't propaganda channels. How would you rate something like the Murdoch media or the NY Post?
 
The IDF has killed thousands of civilians.
Correction. IDF has killed thousands of terrorists, their sympathizers and supporters. IDF has killed thousands who openly express their love for Jews to roll over and die.

And then there are hundreds of thousands still living. From the river push them into the sea or into Sinai.
 
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And then there are hundreds of thousands still living. From the river push them into the sea or into Sinai.
I consider your post as an open request for ethnic cleansing and genocide. I was aware of Musk veering far to the right, yet I wasn't aware that some Tesla drivers not only have followed, but far surpassed him on that trip.
 
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…And then there are hundreds of thousands still living. From the river push them into the sea or into Sinai.
I consider your post as an open request for ethnic cleansing and genocide…
Let’s not quote “from the river to the sea” in this thread please. While I can see the sarcasm in using a phrase that was originally coined by Palestine about destroying Israel, to in turn destroying the most extreme elements of Gaza sharing such this attitude, considering that the phrase has also been used in return by Israel and quoted in the accusations of genocide by Israel, let’s just don’t.
 
I don't know what sort of knowledge you are supposed to have anyway, in order to judge Israel's actions properly.

I agree with you 100%. But try history and rules of international war. Start here, and many of the other links I have posted in this thread What International Law Has to Say About the Israel-Hamas War

there are mass graves being uncovered at two hospitals in Gaza:

and as the sat images show, dug by Hamas:



Satellite images over Israel are restricted. "Israel" also means occupied areas such as the West Bank and Gaza.


see above tweet thread and read the article ffs. The satellite images are coming out just fine, and they show that Hamas/Gazans dig and filled the graves well before IDF got there. smh
(moderator edit)
 
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I agree with you 100%. But try history and rules of international war. Start here, and many of the other links I have posted in this thread What International Law Has to Say About the Israel-Hamas War



and as the sat images show, dug by Hamas:





see above tweet thread and read the article ffs. The satellite images are coming out just fine, and they show that Hamas/Gazans dig and filled the graves well before IDF got there. smh
(moderator edit)

Thanks. Given that Scheffer's opnion was written in October of last year, it doesn't look as if Israel is coming out to well here. Famine because of a lack of aid, huge number of civilian casualties, displacement of the civilian population - it's no surprise that Netanyahu seems to get worried that the International Criminal Court might be coming for him.
 
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Thanks. it doesn't look as if Israel is coming out to well here. Famine because of a lack of aid, huge number of civilian casualties, displacement of the civilian population

Based on what exactly and precisely? Either based on international law or compared to similar violations by Hamas?

Also, always always keep in mind, all Hamas has to do it release the kidnapped innocents, and not use civilians as shields. OR Gazans could themselves implement a leadership change to do those things. That is the key to end of the self-induced suffering in Gaza.
 
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Based on what exactly and precisely? Either based on international law or compared to similar violations by Hamas?

Also, always always keep in mind, all Hamas has to do it release the kidnapped innocents, and not use civilians as shields. OR Gazans could themselves implement a leadership change to do those things. That is the key to end of the self-induced suffering in Gaza.
I suggest you read the text you have linked yourself. Israel has obligations under International Law and there are convincing arguments that Israel has seriously violated those obligations. It can't use any "but Hamas" excuses.
The rest of your arguments have been out there for a while. No one believes that Israel's government even cares about the hostages. That's the reason why there are protests by the relatives of the hostages against this government. As to using "civilians as shields": using this argument basically all of Israel would itself be a legitimate target, as you'll find people with connection to the military everywhere. If Hamas managed to blow up whole apartment buildings in Israel just because they are the residence of an IDF soldier or an Israeli official, would this also be justified, because they were hiding behind human shields?
Finally, the last argument is the smug argument usually made by armchair heroes, who never had to challenge a dictatorial regime in their whole life.
 
Another Hamas lie debunked “Mass Graves”, and the usual suspects just slink off and wait for the next bit of excrement to throw against the wall to see what sticks.

They fall for every bit of Palestinian propaganda and ludicrously stretch and bend language “Genocide” to heap scorn on the Jews in Israel.
Well, it's notable that none of the people here who were dismissing protesting students as being ignorant felt called upon to repeat those claims when it comes to the experts of the State Department. Instead, we got advocacy in favour ot genocide.
As to the mass graves, it does seem as if they were used by by the hospitals themselves. However, mass graves aren't necessarily single-use. It would be preferable if outside pathologists could take a look at the corpses.
 
I agree with you 100%. But try history and rules of international war. Start here, and many of the other links I have posted in this thread What International Law Has to Say About the Israel-Hamas War



and as the sat images show, dug by Hamas:





see above tweet thread and read the article ffs. The satellite images are coming out just fine, and they show that Hamas/Gazans dig and filled the graves well before IDF got there. smh
(moderator edit)

Yes, I do see there have been Israel satellite images that include occupied lands such a West Bank and Gaza but that doesn't mean the US law doesn't restrict. It's a US law, not an international law.

 
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there are convincing arguments that Israel has seriously violated those obligations.

Make, or cite to, one.

As to using "civilians as shields": using this argument basically all of Israel would itself be a legitimate target

No.

If Hamas managed to blow up whole apartment buildings in Israel just because they are the residence of an IDF soldier or an Israeli official, would this also be justified, because they were hiding behind human shields?

No. That isn’t remotely how the principal of proportionality works. The law is somewhat, but not hugely, complex. Read up on the details of the law. Other links I have posted in this thread have the details.


Yes, I do see there have been Israel satellite images that include occupied lands such a West Bank and Gaza but that doesn't mean the US law doesn't restrict. It's a US law, not an international law.

What’s the point?

On a happier note, here is a good way to combat protestors in support of rape jihadists.
 
And in case some of us need a reminder: the full video is available at this link.