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New M3P have lowered suspension?
- Thread starter White_Walker
- Start date
Nope, no change in ride hight any longer for the Performance.
Alpha Motoring
Member
Hi all, I have a similar question: I got my 2023 M3P three weeks ago and parked it next to a co-worker's 20 or 21 M3P. His looks at least 1 inch lower, and much better. While I assume mine might still settle a little more over time, it surely won't go as low as the originally lowered M3P suspension.
I looked around and found that the Eibach Pro-Kit Performance springs might do the trick. While I preferred coil-overs for achieving much lower heights in the past, for going down only about an inch, I suppose shorter springs should be sufficient without impacting the ride quality and suspension balance too much.
However, I guess the height changes they list might be outdated, assuming that both, the M3LR and the M3P now have an updated, but otherwise similar suspension. For the M3LR (probably the older variant suspension), they predict about 0.9 inches lower in the front and 1 inch lower in the rear, which would be perfect. For the (once again, probably older) M3P they predict 1 inch in the front and 1.4 inches in the rear, which doesn't sound as good to me because I'd rather have it a little lower in the front than a notibly smaller fender gap in the rear.
The question is, if M3LR and M3P now share the same suspension, which Eibach spring kit (if any of the currently listed ones) would be the right one for my 23 M3P? I am wondering if they haven't updated their info yet, maybe waiting a little might give the most reliable answer.
Just speculating here, if the shared suspension type is now more like the older M3LR suspension, that variant might also fit in the M3P and give me the heights I'd prefer. Or, more likely (especially from a manufacturer's standpoint), the springs are identical, and the differences came from different shocks in the M3P. In that case, the M3P springs should not lower the rear so much anymore either. Or, the differences were just resulting from manufacturing tolerances someone once noticed, recorded and subsequently listed?
Here is the web page I found, in case someone is interested: Lift Kits, Lowering Springs, Race Springs, Shocks & Sway Bars
Already being disappointed by not having the park distance sensors anymore, I hope I will at least find a somewhat affordable way to make my M3P look like a Performance again.
Thank you for your time!
Wolf
I looked around and found that the Eibach Pro-Kit Performance springs might do the trick. While I preferred coil-overs for achieving much lower heights in the past, for going down only about an inch, I suppose shorter springs should be sufficient without impacting the ride quality and suspension balance too much.
However, I guess the height changes they list might be outdated, assuming that both, the M3LR and the M3P now have an updated, but otherwise similar suspension. For the M3LR (probably the older variant suspension), they predict about 0.9 inches lower in the front and 1 inch lower in the rear, which would be perfect. For the (once again, probably older) M3P they predict 1 inch in the front and 1.4 inches in the rear, which doesn't sound as good to me because I'd rather have it a little lower in the front than a notibly smaller fender gap in the rear.
The question is, if M3LR and M3P now share the same suspension, which Eibach spring kit (if any of the currently listed ones) would be the right one for my 23 M3P? I am wondering if they haven't updated their info yet, maybe waiting a little might give the most reliable answer.
Just speculating here, if the shared suspension type is now more like the older M3LR suspension, that variant might also fit in the M3P and give me the heights I'd prefer. Or, more likely (especially from a manufacturer's standpoint), the springs are identical, and the differences came from different shocks in the M3P. In that case, the M3P springs should not lower the rear so much anymore either. Or, the differences were just resulting from manufacturing tolerances someone once noticed, recorded and subsequently listed?
Here is the web page I found, in case someone is interested: Lift Kits, Lowering Springs, Race Springs, Shocks & Sway Bars
Already being disappointed by not having the park distance sensors anymore, I hope I will at least find a somewhat affordable way to make my M3P look like a Performance again.
Thank you for your time!
Wolf
@Wolf78 I don't think M3P was ever 1" (25.4mm!) lower than M3LR. Are you sure that M3P you saw was stock? Also what tire size did it have?
To compare suspension heights you really need to measure from wheel center (hub center) to top-of-fender. Only on perfectly flat ground, such as a garage floor (well-leveled home garage or auto shop). *Not* a parking lot or big parking garage!
The difference I've typically heard here for M3P vs M3LR AWD is only 10mm, and from what I've seen, that sounds about right. 2021 M3P sit just slightly lower than 2021 M3LR but it's not by much. 1" would be 25.4mm lower - that's a huge difference, M3P never looked that much lower to me.
Re: Eibach springs - it sounds like Eibach has different springs for LR AWD vs P? That is strange because in mechanical and weight terms, LR AWD and P are essentially identical. Any springs that work well on one, should work well on the other. (In fact many early LR AWD and P are 100% mechanically identical, with the only difference being software configuration.)
If Eibach is suggesting the same springs for LR AWD or P - which normally would make sense - then the drop numbers they're advertising don't make any sense.
If Eibach is suggesting different springs for LR AWD vs P, then maybe their advertised drop numbers could be real, but it doesn't make sense to have different springs for LR AWD vs P. If they want to offer two different levels of drop, that would make sense! However both sets should be compatible with both LR AWD and P, if that is the case!
If you just want the look of a 2021 M3P, best option IMO would be takeoff springs / suspension from the 2021. Or go for 2020 or older takeoffs - with the dampers! - to get the firmer, sportier suspension tuning of older Model 3's.
If you do a big drop on stock dampers like Eibach is advertising, it's going to impact the ride, and it'll probably make the handling worse too over any kind of bad pavement. Maybe not so much that you care, but the impact will be there. The stock 2021+ Model 3 damping is junk for performance driving and can't even keep up with the stock spring rates over rough pavement. I've been behind lowered Model 3's on the highway that I can see bouncing after coming out of big dips - I guarantee they were on lowering springs with the stock dampers.
That said I see you're in FL which tends to have pretty smooth, flat roads. The smoother your roads, and the calmer your driving, the less these issues are going to matter for you. Maybe not a big deal at all if you won't be shredding up twisty back roads or driving over much bad pavement.
To compare suspension heights you really need to measure from wheel center (hub center) to top-of-fender. Only on perfectly flat ground, such as a garage floor (well-leveled home garage or auto shop). *Not* a parking lot or big parking garage!
The difference I've typically heard here for M3P vs M3LR AWD is only 10mm, and from what I've seen, that sounds about right. 2021 M3P sit just slightly lower than 2021 M3LR but it's not by much. 1" would be 25.4mm lower - that's a huge difference, M3P never looked that much lower to me.
Re: Eibach springs - it sounds like Eibach has different springs for LR AWD vs P? That is strange because in mechanical and weight terms, LR AWD and P are essentially identical. Any springs that work well on one, should work well on the other. (In fact many early LR AWD and P are 100% mechanically identical, with the only difference being software configuration.)
If Eibach is suggesting the same springs for LR AWD or P - which normally would make sense - then the drop numbers they're advertising don't make any sense.
If Eibach is suggesting different springs for LR AWD vs P, then maybe their advertised drop numbers could be real, but it doesn't make sense to have different springs for LR AWD vs P. If they want to offer two different levels of drop, that would make sense! However both sets should be compatible with both LR AWD and P, if that is the case!
If you just want the look of a 2021 M3P, best option IMO would be takeoff springs / suspension from the 2021. Or go for 2020 or older takeoffs - with the dampers! - to get the firmer, sportier suspension tuning of older Model 3's.
If you do a big drop on stock dampers like Eibach is advertising, it's going to impact the ride, and it'll probably make the handling worse too over any kind of bad pavement. Maybe not so much that you care, but the impact will be there. The stock 2021+ Model 3 damping is junk for performance driving and can't even keep up with the stock spring rates over rough pavement. I've been behind lowered Model 3's on the highway that I can see bouncing after coming out of big dips - I guarantee they were on lowering springs with the stock dampers.
That said I see you're in FL which tends to have pretty smooth, flat roads. The smoother your roads, and the calmer your driving, the less these issues are going to matter for you. Maybe not a big deal at all if you won't be shredding up twisty back roads or driving over much bad pavement.
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Hi @tm1v2,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this! I personally believe the Eibach springs should all be the same, but I haven't seen them in person yet. They have different product numbers, but that might have something to do with the legalization of those springs in Germany. In the German description, they say the drop should be 25mm on both, the front and the rear. As I said, I have no idea why the American pamphlet shows different numbers. I might send the German headquarters an email to see what's what.
Regarding my brand-new M3P vs. my coworker's slightly older M3P: They were sitting right next to each other in two fairy level charging spots. I know the older M3P should be 10mm lower than the older M3LR, at least that's what was always advertised in the past. The question is, is the 2023 suspension, which I think is advertised as improved in terms of comfort, a little higher than the older M3LR? If that's the case and if the M3P has the exact same suspension, that would explain why my M3P looks significantly higher than my coworker's M3P. That, and maybe the fact that my car hasn't fully settled yet, if that could be the case..? We didn't have ruler or anything, but it definitely seemed more than 10mm.
Regarding the Eibach springs and an anticipated drop of maybe 20 to 30mm: I didn't think that that would be a significant change that would require new shock absorbers, to be honest. I had a VW Golf I dropped by 80/60 and in that case yes, it needed new shocks and springs. I also had a Miata which I lowered by 35mm using the original Bilstein shocks and H&R springs and that drop was just fine. I'm not going to go on a race track and the roads here are mostly okay, so I hope 25mm will be fine...
A 1 inch drop in a suspension is a huge deal. That is a big percentage of the total suspension travel in a car. Best practice with any drop that big is to also change the shocks. Put simply, the whole job of the shock is to control your spring. When you go over a bump, the spring compresses and naturally wants to release that energy by uncompressing. The shock absorber is what controls that. They also absolve some of that compression to lesson the energy into the spring to begin with. If you change the spring, it generally makes sense to change what controls it. While it is often drivable on the stock shocks and lowering springs, the reality is your suspension performance is drastically diminished unless you pair it with a shock that can control the spring and an alignment for the new suspension geometry. Yes, you can just do lowering springs, but you will almost universally be better off doing shocks with them.
Hi @Clover,
Sure, it's always better to get a matching shock and spring combination, but it would require spending significantly more money while ending up with an almost new surplus stock suspension no one really wants. If it's a limited decrease in comfort while maybe wearing out the shocks a little faster, but not really damaging the car chassis or other components, I think that's an acceptable degradation, especially if the driver is prepared to drive more carefully on rough terrain. If it is impacting to a point where safety is compromised or the chassis is overstressed, then it is a problem. It gets acutely critical if you start hitting the bump stops, or if the tires are potentially scraping in the wheel housing. I don't see that that would necessarily happen if you lower a 2023 M3P by 25mm, especially because the updated suspension seems higher than the old one. It is clear that there is no 10mm M3P lowering anymore; assuming that the new LR comfort suspension rides 5 to 10 mm higher than the old type, that would result in only 5 to 10mm more lowering than the old M3P. The only piece missing for me to pull the trigger is the verification of my assumptions.
@Wolf78 It's certainly plausible Tesla has raised the Model 3 since 2021 when I was last looking closely. They frequently tweak and change the suspension tuning of their cars. That said, are you sure your coworker's M3P is stock? I asked that before and didn't see a clear answer. If you haven't asked your coworker if it's modded, go ahead and ask. Might be that it is. And again, check its tire size...could be it's running a smaller diameter tire.
Settling of the stock suspension...hrmm...how many miles were on your car when you were comparing heights? How many of those do you think were after the train or truck ride across the country? I didn't track settling of my stock suspension. However I can say the Swift springs in my Redwood Performance Sport Ohlins DFV coilovers settled about 2-3mm after putting some miles on them. (That's *not* counting the initial immediate settling that I got out of the way just by driving back and forth right off the lift.)
As for pairing lowering springs with the stock dampers, it seems like you understand that in general, but you're denying the specifics of this car.
Big disclaimer: Everything I'm writing here is based on 2021 M3P and M3LR. Could be your new 2023 is better in these regards, but if so it's the first I've heard of newer Model 3's having improvements in these areas. (However older Model 3's are firmer and sportier and these flaws aren't so apparent in them! But they ride worse.)
This car hits the rear bump stops easy....when 100% stock.
The damping on this car loses control of its body motions and can't keep up...even on the stock springs.
The dampers are far and away the weak point of this car's handling...even on the stock springs.
This isn't your Miata with branded Bilsteins. The stock dampers on this car are very cheap budget items. They are not high performance parts. (Don't get me wrong, there's a whole lot of fundamental goodness baked into this car, I think the team that designed the Model 3 did a great job making it fun and handle well - but when it came time to ramp up production and hit cost targets, good high performance dampers just weren't in the budget.)
Now add lowering springs to the mix. Either they're firmer, in which case the lack of damping will become a bigger issue, or they're not firmer, in which case hitting those rear bump stops will become a bigger issue. Either way, you're looking at worse handling in some fashion, especially over rough surfaces.
I think you're correct to not worry about damaging the dampers from a 1" drop. I wouldn't worry about that either. But that doesn't mean the dampers will handle it well - they don't even handle well with the stock springs!
Like I said, maybe for your taste and the driving you do, this won't really be an issue. I don't think lowering springs are going to hurt you or anything like that. But for sure they will make this car handle worse over any kind of bad pavement. If you actually want to improve this car's handling, save up for upgrading the dampers, and don't bother with anything else before that.
Settling of the stock suspension...hrmm...how many miles were on your car when you were comparing heights? How many of those do you think were after the train or truck ride across the country? I didn't track settling of my stock suspension. However I can say the Swift springs in my Redwood Performance Sport Ohlins DFV coilovers settled about 2-3mm after putting some miles on them. (That's *not* counting the initial immediate settling that I got out of the way just by driving back and forth right off the lift.)
As for pairing lowering springs with the stock dampers, it seems like you understand that in general, but you're denying the specifics of this car.
Big disclaimer: Everything I'm writing here is based on 2021 M3P and M3LR. Could be your new 2023 is better in these regards, but if so it's the first I've heard of newer Model 3's having improvements in these areas. (However older Model 3's are firmer and sportier and these flaws aren't so apparent in them! But they ride worse.)
This car hits the rear bump stops easy....when 100% stock.
The damping on this car loses control of its body motions and can't keep up...even on the stock springs.
The dampers are far and away the weak point of this car's handling...even on the stock springs.
This isn't your Miata with branded Bilsteins. The stock dampers on this car are very cheap budget items. They are not high performance parts. (Don't get me wrong, there's a whole lot of fundamental goodness baked into this car, I think the team that designed the Model 3 did a great job making it fun and handle well - but when it came time to ramp up production and hit cost targets, good high performance dampers just weren't in the budget.)
Now add lowering springs to the mix. Either they're firmer, in which case the lack of damping will become a bigger issue, or they're not firmer, in which case hitting those rear bump stops will become a bigger issue. Either way, you're looking at worse handling in some fashion, especially over rough surfaces.
I think you're correct to not worry about damaging the dampers from a 1" drop. I wouldn't worry about that either. But that doesn't mean the dampers will handle it well - they don't even handle well with the stock springs!
Like I said, maybe for your taste and the driving you do, this won't really be an issue. I don't think lowering springs are going to hurt you or anything like that. But for sure they will make this car handle worse over any kind of bad pavement. If you actually want to improve this car's handling, save up for upgrading the dampers, and don't bother with anything else before that.
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Hi @tm1v2,@Wolf78 It's certainly plausible Tesla has raised the Model 3 since 2021 when I was last looking closely. They frequently tweak and change the suspension tuning of their cars. That said, are you sure your coworker's M3P is stock? I asked that before and didn't see a clear answer. If you haven't asked your coworker if it's modded, go ahead and ask. Might be that it is. And again, check its tire size...could be it's running a smaller diameter tire.
Settling of the stock suspension...hrmm...how many miles were on your car when you were comparing heights? How many of those do you think were after the train or truck ride across the country? I didn't track settling of my stock suspension. However I can say the Swift springs in my Redwood Performance Sport Ohlins DFV coilovers settled about 2-3mm after putting some miles on them. (That's *not* counting the initial immediate settling that I got out of the way just by driving back and forth right off the lift.)
As for pairing lowering springs with the stock dampers, it seems like you understand that in general, but you're denying the specifics of this car.
Big disclaimer: Everything I'm writing here is based on 2021 M3P and M3LR. Could be your new 2023 is better in these regards, but if so it's the first I've heard of newer Model 3's having improvements in these areas. (However older Model 3's are firmer and sportier and these flaws aren't so apparent in them! But they ride worse.)
This car hits the rear bump stops easy....when 100% stock.
The damping on this car loses control of its body motions and can't keep up...even on the stock springs.
The dampers are far and away the weak point of this car's handling...even on the stock springs.
This isn't your Miata with branded Bilsteins. The stock dampers on this car are very cheap budget items. They are not high performance parts. (Don't get me wrong, there's a whole lot of fundamental goodness baked into this car, I think the team that designed the Model 3 did a great job making it fun and handle well - but when it came time to ramp up production and hit cost targets, good high performance dampers just weren't in the budget.)
Now add lowering springs to the mix. Either they're firmer, in which case the lack of damping will become a bigger issue, or they're not firmer, in which case hitting those rear bump stops will become a bigger issue. Either way, you're looking at worse handling in some fashion, especially over rough surfaces.
I think you're correct to not worry about damaging the dampers from a 1" drop. I wouldn't worry about that either. But that doesn't mean the dampers will handle it well - they don't even handle well with the stock springs!
Like I said, maybe for your taste and the driving you do, this won't really be an issue. I don't think lowering springs are going to hurt you or anything like that. But for sure they will make this car handle worse over any kind of bad pavement. If you actually want to improve this car's handling, save up for upgrading the dampers, and don't bother with anything else before that.
Excellent response, thank you so much for the clarifications. I'm new to the, in my eyes, unconventional (to say the least) approach Tesla does with it comes to communicating what components are in the car, and what was recently changed. Lots of guessing and assuming, while I could always ask VW or BMW (back in Germany) and get fairly precise answers about technical details. The info about better ride comfort in the 23s is yet another unconfirmed statement I either found in a forum or on Twitter. But of course, if they wanted to address poor ride quality by adding longer springs for more spring travel, marketing calls it a "comfort suspension", but won't list pesky technical details which disclose that it's not a technical improvement.
Sorry, I forgot to answer your questions about my coworker's M3P. We specifically compared our cars after I had told him that the 23's don't come with lowered suspension anymore. He was astonished when he walked around our cars and stuck his hand between the wheel and fender of mine. He has the stock suspension and we have the same uber-something rims. Mine has the cheaper Pirelli's, not sure which tires he has, other than that they are the ones his car came with. I doubt that Michelin vs. Pirelli makes a difference in ride height looks.
Settling: When we looked, my car had around 400 miles on the clock. Is is now approaching 800 and I doubt anything else is going to change anymore, height-wise.
I'm not in a hurry, but it's an item on my list. You said if I wanted to improve the car's handling, I should go for a whole new suspension. I have to make up my mind what my desired improvement ratio is between better handling and mere optics. So far, the not-so-great look is what started my investigations.
As I said initially, the 2023 Performance feels a little like a downgraded version of the previous years and I've started looking for ways to add back what they removed. Yesterday I added a $65 aftermarket part that adds back USB data functionality to the center console.
Thanks again for your great response!
I went from a '20 Model 3 Performance to a '23 Model 3 Performance. The newer car is tremendously better.
The list of improvements/differences from my '20 M3P to my '23 are as follows. There is nothing better about the '20, IMO.
- 75kWh battery to 82kWh (improved range and 0-60 time)
- Intel Atom (MCU2) to AMD Ryzen (MCU3) - much faster/responsive main screen, now includes Zoom app
- resistive heating system vs. heat pump
- standard headlights vs. new Matrix-style
- new tail lights/rear turn signals
- new cameras
- low voltage battery upgraded from AGM to 16V Lithium-ion
- heated windshield wipers and additional/improved squirters
- improved material (metal) for the steering wheel multifunction scroll wheels
- powered trunk
- new/improved interior center console with USB-C, USB-C for rear passengers
- wireless charging for front passengers
- new front door trim with wood, better plastics and lighted door pockets
- double-paned front door glass for less road noise
- heated steering wheel
- exterior chrome trim vs. satin black (I much prefer the black)
- improved front fender cameras, no more camera-sensor-blinded-by-flashing-indicator-at-night
- CCS charging compatible
- improved TPMS sensors (Bluetooth)
- rear glass to trunk rubber seal has water drain holes
- Overall less squeaks and rattles. I dunno what 'under the hood' changes they made in the past three years, but the car feels better put together.
Fine, I'll just say it. Lowering springs only is pure RICE. You are significantly trading off how the car preforms while moving for how it looks while parked. There is not a single credible suspension engineer who would recommend them alone. Did you buy the car to drive or as a sculpture? Don't be so caught up in one upping your coworker that you shot yourself in the foot.
@turns2stone Thanks for the info, I was never particularly interested in Tesla until recently. It seems obvious that many of those changes you list are for the better; too bad they removed two big things (parking sensors and lowered suspension) that quickly caught my attention.
I did some more research on the suspension and found a comparison video of the stock suspension vs. a KW coilover. It seems the stock suspension doesn't stand a chance, which confirms what @tm1v2 already stated above. Coming from VW and BMW, that's just something I didn't anticipate finding out about the Model 3 "Performance" variant.
Squeaks and rattles: I have a rattle in the driver's door, as well as somewhere in the rear as soon as I hit 40mph. Not too thrilled about that either, but it seems to be something one can easily fix with some foam tape, so I'll give it a shot myself.
Thanks again!
Good point about parking sensors. But, 'they'll be back' before too long so it's going to be a moot point eventually.
So if I look at EPC I see zero evidence that the P has ever had a lowered suspension or that it has changed since launch. EPC shows performance specific dampers in front only (really coilover modules as they include springs) that are the same for all years, and rear dampers and springs are the same. Main difference is thicker sway bars on the P. If anything, the uberturbine equipped cars may sit a tiny bit lower just because of the wider rims which stretch out the sidewalls much more than the half inch narrower original 20x8.5s (UTs are 9" so really on the margin of what a 235 tire can handle).
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