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Power quality issue: possible causes?

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What is the inductance of the load you applied that cause the voltage rise?
Compared to the unloaded state, an inductive load will not cause voltage rise.

Edit: unless your source impedance is very capacitive, and the reactive effects exceed the resistive effects. Basically for source impedance Zs and load impedance Zl, to see voltage rise caused by the load, you'd need the real part of Zs / (Zs + Zl) to be negative, or almost negative.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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Correct on edit. Inductive loads without correction cause the current to nearly double. Saw this with my well pump motor. I don’t have many capacitive loads, but it is possible some installed the wrong run capacitor on a motor that comes on.
That's still not going to cause voltage rise for the typical resistances and reactances of the source (including service conductors) and the load (edit: for a residential service).

Cheers, Wayne
 
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For what it is worth to export power your solar system NEEDS to have a higher voltage than the line. So my normally 247V is often 250 - 251V with the solar active.

From the point of view of the inverter, to export power, all it has to do is match the voltage at its terminals, and push out current. The fact that its terminal voltage will rise as it pushes out more current is due to the impedance of the electrical network to which it is connected. The grid voltage as measured at the meter will depend on the net current to/from the grid and the upstream impedance of the grid, including the service conductors.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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@CrazyRabbit So, yes, I have taken electronics, and I have been responsible for power quality and provisioning professionally, though I am not an electrician. I do know one end of a screwdriver and DVM from the other, and I have had front row seats for more than a few power oddities over the years, some of which I diagnosed and corrected. This is not one that I understand.

The power factor of the load that was added that caused the voltage rise was 1.0, and it was small, between 0.5kW and 0.6kW, and the rise was about 3V. I don't know where the nearest large capacitor could be that might be connected on the distribution circuit, but it isn't here, or within at least 1/3-1/2 mile, and several distribution transformers. All of my neighbors are individually fed from a transformer, all 15kW, and I can't think of anyone who could have a bad capacitor that would be connected. As noted above, PG&E did have a capacitor bank on the circuit, and removing it dropped the grid voltage by about 3V, but didn't change the behavior.

The meter to main service panel is 18", 3/0 copper. House load only hits 5kW when the dryer runs, and a few times a year when the AC runs. Typical draw with lighting, and vampire drains is 0.2-0.3kW, but with the refrigerator, it can be 0.6-0.8kW. So, not a high draw home, and not much is left connected routinely. Nothing weird electrically, at least routinely, and certainly nothing new in the last nine months when the problem cropped up.

Yes, exporting 4-7kW does cause a 3V or so rise in the meter voltage due to the impedance here, but the grid voltage wanders up and down 242-254V during the day, with similar export or loads here, and the pattern doesn't seem to correlate with time of day particularly, e.g. there isn't a reproducible 6:00am drop when some load kicks on the line. There are only two non-residential accounts on this distribution line, and one uses next to no power. The other is ten miles away, with a number of transformers and loads (computers, small HVAC, nothing too big that I am aware of beyond a well pump). The three big well pumps that I know of on this distribution circuit are three phase, and two programmed to kick in overnight for cost reasons, and the third is programmed for 4-7am use when needed. Voltage drop on the latter is not really detectable, as it is only a 2.7kW load.

Solar, and powerwalls export power by advancing the phase. As @wwhitney points out the export may cause a voltage rise due to the impedance of the transformer and HV line, but the voltage rise is not intrinsic to the export.

All the best,

BG
 
PG&E update:
Apparently the data logger that was installed for eight days failed to record any (useful?) data.​
PG&E has a plan to install a different kind of logger, but no date was communicated to me.​

I don't know how to interpret the plan to install a different brand/type of data logger. That suggests to me that the initial logger captured data, but not useful data, or more likely captured data that raised additional questions requiring a different data logger (better transient capture? More data points/sec? Or?)

I think that this process of insulating the customer from the people who are actually doing the technical analysis is like playing the kiddie game of "Telephone". A great deal gets lost in transmission.

Voltage is still straying over 250VAC.

Stay tuned.

All the best,

BG
 
PG&E came by and a new monitor was installed. It is the same make and model, but a different unit. According to the lineman, the prior monitor was DOA when hooked up for download in the shop. The logger captures voltage, current, and power at 1Hz. It has no ability to capture short transients, or harmonics (except due to harmonic shifts in reactance). The estimated time for removal is 5-7 days, and then the data is supposed to be sent over to Power Quality engineering.

I think that PG&E seems to have done something to the circuit as over the las week or so the voltage seems to get to 250VAC, but not higher that I have seen, and certainly not to the 254-256VAC that I had been seeing. The voltage does seem to have a 6-8V shift over the course of the day.

All the best,

BG
 
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Well, we may have fix and a possible cause!

Just to recap: we are on a long rural 22kV distribution line, with our own 15kW transformers. I began looking into our local over voltage issues, after Tesla support notified me of them when I called in to adjust the off-grid PV shutdown frequency down to 62.5Hz. Our meter was pretty routinely showing voltage at 254VAC or above during the day, and a UPS in the house with a voltage regulator subsystem was kicking in to bring the line voltage down to 120VAC for the components it supports.

Our utility tested the line and found no faults, or issues, and then installed a line voltage logging meter. The first logger failed to show any data, and the second did not capture any issues. At the same time as the first logger, the utility troubleman removed a capacitor bank from the line. (Don't you love that job title?)

The bottom line is that removing a capacitor bank seems to have lowered the voltage by about 3-4VAC, just enough to bring the maximum line voltage under the Rule 2 limit (252VAC).

The slightly longer story is that the issue seems to have been caused by adding residential solar (at least three installations since 2022), and the added power raises the voltage enough to occasionally have pushed the line voltage over 252VAC, triggering errors at the Tesla Gateway. Whatever the capacitor bank was installed to fix seems no longer to be an issue and its removal drops the line voltage back into nominal levels.

The following plot is our meter voltage since mid-February, courtesy of a helpful engineer at the utility. I think it is a rather informative plot when you dig into it. I have called out the Rule 2 voltage level, as that is the voltage level the utility is focused on.
4805 QUIMBY RD - VOLTAGE.jpeg


While not directly related to this issue, here is the plot since 2018; I called out the wildfire, as the most of the distribution line and neighborhood were evacuated, with a resulting solid rise in line voltage.
image003.jpeg

The effect of the additional solar capacity on the distribution line can be seen in the general upward trend of the voltage, as the extra capacity comes on line.

The most recent troubleman to visit had decades of experience working on similar long rural lines, and he opined that for the long, sparsely populated, distribution lines, the same utility typically installs many, many automatic voltage regulators in other areas to keep the line voltages in spec for most of the time. For those who aren't familiar with the voltage regulators, they automatically switch boosters/buck coils in or out as the line voltage moves to bring the voltage back into compliance. For large customers, it is not uncommon to have two line voltage regulators, one upstream and one downstream of the customer to keep the customer demand/generation swings from having untoward impacts on the other customers on the circuit. 1,500lbs and up.

What I take away from this episode is that residential solar does bring maintenance, management, and voltage complexities to the utilities in ways that a grid scale PV installation doesn't. I have to admit that I came away from all of this with some changed views on grid sustainability and management challenges.

For an interesting viewpoint, here is what I think is a great podcast from a former CAISO employee who has an idea for reducing grid management complexity by making it much more like the hierarchy of the internet.


All the best,

BG
 
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