Questions on FSD vs NoA vs Autopilot

[RickyFish89]

I'm one of the many newcomers to FSD on 10.8. All is well so far, but I wanted to ask some questions that hopefully others already know on what to expect in certain scenarios. I can go out and test this stuff if others don't know, but hopefully I can save myself some time here. For clarity, I have FSD and options already marked in my settings. I've successfully tried FSD by having a destination, double-tapping stalk, and pressing NoA button and I successfully made it to my destination.

So, questions/scenarios:

1. If I have a destination in Nav, double-tap stalk, but Don't press NoA button, does that mean it's just like a 'super' autopilot, where it does lane centering, stops at red lights/stop signs, etc but does not change lanes or make turns for me despite what nav suggests?... Does it just Stop at red lights/stop signs, or does it Go automatically as well? does it stop at green lights as well where I have to press the accelerator to confirm it's green? what about roundabouts?

2. same as above, but when I DONT have a destination in the nav. Obviously it definitely won't make any turns, but is it effectively super auto pilot where it will correctly work with traffic lights/stop signs, but only go straight? roundabouts? is it actually 'running' fsd or autopilot at this point? The visualization seems to always have FSD vis as I drive around so I'm not sure if that means it's always running fsd 'rules' or not.

3. finally, how well does it transition from FSD to NoA etc? I'm under the impression it's still separate stacks, so if I navigate to my office which requires highway travel, does it do FSD from my home to on-ramp, then seamlessly transition to AP/NoA exactly as it 'was' a week ago for me? does the visualization change on the dashboard at that point? anything i should be 'ready' for during these trips?

Like I said at the top, these are all things I could go answer for myself right now, but figured I'd ask in case others already know. With how short it stops at lights/etc I don't particularly Want to test driving full speed at a stop sign or roundabout hoping it'll stop at the last moment just to find out what it does. Anything else I should know??

 

[diplomat33]

1. If I have a destination in Nav, double-tap stalk, but Don't press NoA button, does that mean it's just like a 'super' autopilot, where it does lane centering, stops at red lights/stop signs, etc but does not change lanes or make turns for me despite what nav suggests?... Does it just Stop at red lights/stop signs, or does it Go automatically as well? does it stop at green lights as well where I have to press the accelerator to confirm it's green? what about roundabouts?

Yes. It will be like "super autopilot". It will lane center, follow lead car, stop and go automatically at traffic lights and stop signs with no stalk confirmation required. But it will not follow the nav route. You can think of the "NOA" button as a "follow the nav route" button. Keep in mind that the NOA button is usually on by default if you have it turned on in your settings. So if you want to drive on FSD without NOA, you will need to tap the little blue NOA button in your nav directions and turn it off.

Keep in mind that without NOA, FSD won't know what route you want, so there could be cases like a fork in the road where FSD will just pick a direction. So it may take you on a "random" route.

2. same as above, but when I DONT have a destination in the nav. Obviously it definitely won't make any turns, but is it effectively super auto pilot where it will correctly work with traffic lights/stop signs, but only go straight? roundabouts? is it actually 'running' fsd or autopilot at this point? The visualization seems to always have FSD vis as I drive around so I'm not sure if that means it's always running fsd 'rules' or not.

Yes, same as above. The only difference is that you won't have the navigation directions spoken to you since you don't have a destination in the nav.

3. finally, how well does it transition from FSD to NoA etc? I'm under the impression it's still separate stacks, so if I navigate to my office which requires highway travel, does it do FSD from my home to on-ramp, then seamlessly transition to AP/NoA exactly as it 'was' a week ago for me? does the visualization change on the dashboard at that point? anything i should be 'ready' for during these trips?

Yes, it is separate stacks but the transition is perfectly seamless with no interruption. The only difference is the visualizations on the screen will change. So when you take an on ramp, the FSD Beta visualization will change back to the old style NOA visualization. And when you take an off ramp, the visualizations will automatically change back to the FSD Beta visualization. So your car can fully navigate you the entire trip in both city and highway (with supervision of course), the visualizations will just change.

Do keep in mind that when you are in old NOA, the car will be using the NOA stack and not the FSD Beta stack. So the car will behave like old NOA. Don't expect FSD Beta behavior.

 

[RickyFish89]

thanks VERY MUCH for the explanations. This is exactly what I expected (more 'hoped') would be the case but with everything being unfinished I was still unsure. thanks again!

 

[Knightshade]

Do keep in mind that when you are in old NOA, the car will be using the NOA stack and not the FSD Beta stack. So the car will behave like old NOA. Don't expect FSD Beta behavior.

One clarification- if your car has radar, it no longer uses it once you get the beta. Even when running the old NOA code on highways. Meaning you'll now be limited to max 80 mph and min follow distance of 2 like other cars that are vision only.

 

[TresLA]

But it will not follow the nav route.

We just got 10.8 last night so I haven’t tried it, but at least the previous version (we were stuck on 10.5 for an unknown reason until last night) seemed to ignore the NoAP button. If there was a destination entered, the car continued to change lanes and make turns even when I tried turning off NoAP. It was “super autopilot” when no destination was entered, but if we had a destination, it would operate seemingly the same with or without NoAP button highlighted/on.

 

[diplomat33]

We just got 10.8 last night so I haven’t tried it, but at least the previous version (we were stuck on 10.5 for an unknown reason until last night) seemed to ignore the NoAP button. If there was a destination entered, the car continued to change lanes and make turns even when I tried turning off NoAP. It was “super autopilot” when no destination was entered, but if we had a destination, it would operate seemingly the same with or without NoAP button highlighted/on.

Thanks. Maybe I am wrong about that? It is possible the NOA button is only for using NOA on the highway and FSD Beta will still follow a route on city roads?

 

[RickyFish89]

We just got 10.8 last night so I haven’t tried it, but at least the previous version (we were stuck on 10.5 for an unknown reason until last night) seemed to ignore the NoAP button. If there was a destination entered, the car continued to change lanes and make turns even when I tried turning off NoAP. It was “super autopilot” when no destination was entered, but if we had a destination, it would operate seemingly the same with or without NoAP button highlighted/on.

thanks for the input! since there was a bit conflicting info on that I decided to go for a very short drive around a few blocks around my home and test it out. I had the same experience as this- when I double-tapped the stalk to engage AP with a nav already entered and NoA off, my car still followed the nav line and made the appropriate right/left turns to get home.

While I was out I decided to test roundabouts without a nav destination since that wasn't answered here also. It was seemingly random. The first roundabout it took the second exit ('straight') and went pretty smoothly. I then went down the street a bit, turned around and came back at the same roundabout going the opposite direction, and this time it took the first exit ('right').

Unfortunately roundabouts are a big negative overall for FSD in my limited experience. I've only hit 4-5 of them so far, and all of them single-lane, but I would call it a 100% failure rate so far, to the point that I will probably disengage before coming to any roundabout in the future if there are any other cars anywhere nearby. every time it would come to a complete stop leading to the roundabout regardless of how empty the roundabout was (and pretty far back from the entrance to the roundabout too), then it would enter the roundabout pretty slowly. If another car entered the roundabout while I was entering, even if that car was far away from me, my car slammed on its brakes to come to a complete stop. And on two separate occasions while navigating the roundabout I would get lane departure warnings beeping at me and telling me to take control... The joys of beta testing eh

 

[RowdyMY]

Thanks. Maybe I am wrong about that? It is possible the NOA button is only for using NOA on the highway and FSD Beta will still follow a route on city roads?

This is correct. I regularly disable NoA on the freeway since it can’t handle the variable direction express lanes in NOVA. Turning off NoA means it will autopilot on the freeway without Nav. Has no impact on function of Navigate on City Streets when you double clutch the stalk.

 

[Twiglett]

This is correct. I regularly disable NoA on the freeway since it can’t handle the variable direction express lanes in NOVA. Turning off NoA means it will autopilot on the freeway without Nav. Has no impact on function of Navigate on City Streets when you double clutch the stalk.

that is my observation also
FSD will follow route and do all the city street stuff regardless of NOA setting
NOA is an add-on to AP which lets AP follow the route etc.
If you like you can allow NOA to follow the route but turn off the lane changing part.
I think that disabling lane change in NOA also inhibits lane changing in FSD though.

I use FSD with AP+NOA, but have NOA lane change disabled - purely because NOA is useless at choosing the best lane in heavier traffic. Since I started using that setting neither FSD or AP have tried overtaking. YMMV though

 

[TresLA]

We just got 10.8 last night so I haven’t tried it, but at least the previous version (we were stuck on 10.5 for an unknown reason until last night) seemed to ignore the NoAP button. If there was a destination entered, the car continued to change lanes and make turns even when I tried turning off NoAP. It was “super autopilot” when no destination was entered, but if we had a destination, it would operate seemingly the same with or without NoAP button highlighted/on.

Just to follow up and confirm 10.8 is the same as 10.5 for us: NoA button only affects highways (vision only production AP) and not FSD beta (city streets). NoA button off and no set destination resulted in “super autopilot” that mostly just went straight, and randomly taking turns when roads ended (“T” intersections).

 

[israndy]

You guys keep saying NoA button, do you mean this one:

on this screen

 

[israndy]

Would it make sense to have a FSD FAQ? A wiki page that people can post questions to and then the wiki would be updated with the best answers

I was unable to find MANY of the answers I wanted in the Owner's Manual, which isn't updated on the Tesla site currently, but I will post it here to be obnoxious, since I really didn't want to read it in the car myself so maybe this will be interesting to someone here:

Full Self-Driving (Beta)​

When Full Self-Driving (Beta) is actively engaged, Model 3 attempts to navigate to your destination by:
- Changing lanes.
• Selecting forks.
• Making turns.
• Stopping at, or proceeding through, controlled intersections.
• Adjusting speed based on speed limits, curvature of the road, and detection of other road users.
• Entering and exiting freeways.

A Warning: Full Self-Driving (Beta) is an early access feature that does not make
Model 3 autonomous and may not perform as expected at all times - do not
become complacent. It requires a full attentive driver who is ready to take
immediate action at all times. Full Self-Driving (Beta) does not replace the driver's
responsibility to operate Model 3

A Warning: Failure to follow all warnings and instructions can result in property
damage, serious injury or death.

To enable Full Self-Driving (Beta), touch Controls > Autopllot > Full Self-Driving
(Beta) and then, after carefully reading and understanding the popup window, touch
Yes

If desired, change the setting for Full Self-Driving (Beta) Profile from the default
setting of AVERAGE to CHILL or ASSERTIVE. CHILL provides a more relaxed driving
style and ASSERTIVE drives with more urgency.

To engage Full Self-Driving (Beta), simply enter a destination (if desired)
and when the touchscreen displays the gray steering wheel icon
indicating that Autosteer is available, move the drive stalk fully down
twice in quick succession. If you do not enter a destination, Model 3
chooses the most probable driving path.

The touchscreen displays a visualization of the environment surrounding Model 3,
including the roadway and detected objects such as vehicles, pedestrians, curbs, etc.
When Full Self-Driving (Beta) is active, the steering wheel icon is blue and a blue line
represents your driving path.

Note: You can widen the visualization area by touching Controls > Autopllot>
Expanded Full Self-Driving Visualization. When enabled, the visualization area
expands whenever the touchscreen is not displaying content from other apps and
features (such as Navigation, Media Player, Calendar, etc).

Note: Like Autosteer, Full Self-Driving (Beta) checks for driver attentiveness and
requires your hands on the steering wheel at all times. If your hands are not
detected, the touchscreen displays escalating warnings and failure to respond to
these warnings cancels Full Self-Driving (Beta) until your next drive.



If you experience incorrect or unexpected behavior, touch the snapshot
icon at the top of the touchscreen to send data to Tesla for analysis.
Tesla uses this data to improve the intelligence of Full Self-Driving (Beta).

When arriving at a chosen destination. Full Self-Driving (Beta) stops Model 3 and
displays a message indicating that navigation is complete.

Always remember that Full Self-Driving (Beta) does not make Model 3 autonomous.
Full autonomy is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as
demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval. As
Tesla's Full Self-Driving capabilities evolve, Model 3 is continuously upgraded
through over-the-air software updates. Download updates as soon as they become
available. To ensure an optimum experience, keep all cameras clean and
unobstructed.

Note: Full Self-Driving (Beta) uses Tesla's vision-based system and therefore radar
is disabled.

Note: Failure to use Full Self-Driving (Beta) appropriately may cause the feature to
be disabled

Limitations​

Full Self-Driving (Beta) and its associated functions may not operate as intended
and there are numerous situations in which driver intervention may be needed.

Examples include (but are not limited to):
• Interactions with pedestrians, bicyclists, and other road users.
• Unprotected turns with high-speed cross traffic.
• Multi-lane turns.
• Simultaneous lane changes.
• Narrow roads with oncoming cars or double-parked vehicles.
• Rare objects such as trailers, ramps, cargo, open doors, etc. protruding from vehicles.
• Merges onto high-traffic, high-speed roads.
• Debris in the road.
• Construction zones.
• High curvature roads, particularly at fast driving speeds.

A Warning: In addition, visibility is critical for Full Self-Driving (Beta) to operate.
Low visibility, such as low light or poor weather conditions (rain, snow, direct sun,
fog, etc.) can significantly degrade performance.

A Warning: Model 3 may quickly and suddenly make unexpected maneuvers of
mistakes that require immediate driver intervention. The list above represents only
a fraction of the possible scenarios that can cause Full Self-Driving (Beta) to make
sudden maneuvers and behave unexpectedly. In fact, Model 3 can suddenly swerve
even when driving conditions appear normal and straight-forward. Stay alert and
always pay attention to the roadway so you can anticipate the need to take
corrective action as early as possible. Remember that this is an early access feature
that must be used with extra caution

*thanks to Apple OS15 for transcribing photos into text

 

[RickyFish89]

You guys keep saying NoA button, do you mean this one:

View attachment 748974View attachment 748975 on this screen View attachment 748985

yes, that's the one. On previous firmwares it wasn't just that little icon but a big button that said 'Navigate on Autopilot'

also, unrelated to this reply but I drove on the highway today and noticed that while it is the old 'style' of visualization, some FSD flare was added- specifically brake lights for cars and showing more than just left/current/right lanes (I was getting all 5 lanes of the highway I was on despite traveling in the far right lane).. this may have been the case for a while for all I know, 10.8 is my first jump into FSD, but i was surprised to see it based on previous comments I'd read about highway being 'old autopilot'

 

[Trekboy]

You people are awesome! I've been searching far and wide since the 10.8 download to figure out what that little blue button icon did on the FSD nav screen. It never seemed to have an effect, but of course, I was always turning it off and on while on city streets FSD. It never occurred to me that it was simply the old NoA and would only have an effect on freeways.

 

[israndy]

OK, but say you are driving on FSD and you decide you wanna flip it off and just drive on AP, is there a fast way to do that? Just want lane keeping and tacc, and otherwise the car stays out of driving. This is for when the wife gets in the car and I realize I was testing FSD when she wasn't around. Is the only option to go into Park and then in Settings turn off FSD (Beta)? Maybe a voice command or holding down a button for 2 seconds?

 

[Knightshade]

OK, but say you are driving on FSD and you decide you wanna flip it off and just drive on AP, is there a fast way to do that? Just want lane keeping and tacc, and otherwise the car stays out of driving. This is for when the wife gets in the car and I realize I was testing FSD when she wasn't around. Is the only option to go into Park and then in Settings turn off FSD (Beta)? Maybe a voice command or holding down a button for 2 seconds?

If you mean on the highway, just turn off NoA- as right now FSDBeta isn't running any special code on the highway.

If you mean city driving, easiest way is probably set up a second driver profile and have FSDBeta turned off in that profile- you can switch profiles without needing to be in park.

 

[RowdyMY]

OK, but say you are driving on FSD and you decide you wanna flip it off and just drive on AP, is there a fast way to do that? Just want lane keeping and tacc, and otherwise the car stays out of driving. This is for when the wife gets in the car and I realize I was testing FSD when she wasn't around. Is the only option to go into Park and then in Settings turn off FSD (Beta)? Maybe a voice command or holding down a button for 2 seconds?

You would need to turn off FSD Beta.

Two ways to accomplish this.

1.) Controls > Autopilot > Toggle off FSD Beta.

This is easy to turn off BUT it makes you reaccept all of the waivers/warnings/etc when you turn it back on.

2.) (My recommendation) Create a new profile titled “FSD Beta” (or whatever, but not “Randy”). Then when you want off of FSD Beta you just hit Controls > Profile > Randy/Randy’s Wife. This also makes it so you can switch between profiles while driving. To re-enable FSD Beta if you toggled the slider off you have to be in park.

 

[TresLA]

yes, that's the one. On previous firmwares it wasn't just that little icon but a big button that said 'Navigate on Autopilot' View attachment 749034

also, unrelated to this reply but I drove on the highway today and noticed that while it is the old 'style' of visualization, some FSD flare was added- specifically brake lights for cars and showing more than just left/current/right lanes (I was getting all 5 lanes of the highway I was on despite traveling in the far right lane).. this may have been the case for a while for all I know, 10.8 is my first jump into FSD, but i was surprised to see it based on previous comments I'd read about highway being 'old autopilot'

Yes, a subtle visual improvement for highway AP (non-FSD beta code stack) is that we now have all visible lanes of traffic instead of just the adjacent lanes. I noticed since joining in 10.2, but what I’m not sure of is whether it’s a production vision only feature that all VO cars have regardless of having joined FSD beta program or not (since we are running VO/no radar once joining FSD beta).

 

[EvolutionTeʂla]

Could anyone tell me exactly which features/functions are included in FSD vs the included Autopilot now?

I bought FSD on my current Model S, but am skipping it (at least for now) on my Plaid until more functionality is added to justify the price.

Specifically, I'm wondering about these FSD features:

- Auto lane changes. Does this refer to the NoA type of unprompted lane changes, or the kind where you can tap the turn signal to initiate the lane change while in AP as well? I hardly ever use the former, but use the latter function all the time.

- Summon. Does regular AP enable the regular front/back summon with the key fob or do we need FSD to do regular summon as well as smart summon?

With the imminent FSD price increase to $12K on January 17th, I'm revisiting my decision to purchase FSD. The only features I use regularly are basic summon (via key fob) and prompted AP lane changes, but can't justify $10K for that. Hopefully FSD subscriptions will be available in Canada at some point. Subscriptions are still only available in the US, correct?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Supcom]

- Auto lane changes. Does this refer to the NoA type of unprompted lane changes, or the kind where you can tap the turn signal to initiate the lane change while in AP as well? I hardly ever use the former, but use the latter function all the time.

- Summon. Does regular AP enable the regular front/back summon with the key fob or do we need FSD to do regular summon as well as smart summon?

Neither of these features is included in the base autopilot. Without FSD, you must cancel autopilot and reengage each time you change lanes.