Tesla Priorities: Refine Autopilot or Fix Everything Else?

[AWDtsla]

Well, I think it would work better with 8 engineers.

If it was 8 engineers Model S should butter your toast via software update by now.

 

[ohmman]

If it was 8 engineers Model S should butter your toast via software update by now.

Mine's a classic, so it doesn't have the butter knife hardware. I guess I'm going to be left out.. again.

 

[green1]

Well, I think it would work better with 8 engineers.

At this point I'd settle for one engineer, working part time....

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Nothing is forever. [emoji6] Yes if there was such a competitor I'm sure it would sell well.
But not only is there not one now, there is no sign that there will be one for years. Audi, the champion of EV press releases, has announced the Q6 for 2018 but said nothing about a charging network. 2019 Audi Q6 Car and Driver The German manufacturers assume that governments will build the charging networks. That might happen in Germany (and any such network is unlikely to be as effective as Teslas) but it won't happen in the US or in many other countries. I don't see any competing EV in Tesla's price class selling well without having a charging network comparable to the Supercharger network.
I think that the Q6 EV could potentially match the basic X features and very likely exceed it in some areas (except the Falcon Wings) but not come close to it in sales because of the lack of a useful high speed charging network. And I bet it won't be any cheaper, base model Q6 to base model X. It might even be more expensive because Audi will be paying more for batteries.
So while I welcome the Q6, it will not be the complete package that the X is now.

If the best you can say about Tesla is "they're the only choice" that doesn't bode well for the future. I agree it's taking forever for anyone else to catch up, but you can't count on Tesla being the only ones forever.

 

[RDoc]

<snip>
If the best you can say about Tesla is "they're the only choice" that doesn't bode well for the future. I agree it's taking forever for anyone else to catch up, but you can't count on Tesla being the only ones forever.

Having worked at Digital Equipment Corp, Polaroid, and Wang Labs, this is REALLY true!

 

[AWDtsla]

At this point I'd settle for one engineer, working part time....

I'll fix stuff for free in my spare time and send them a patch. I have a list of annoyances that are entirely trivial to fix. Give me access to the code.

 

[cpa]

Since I am a totally ignorant fool and naive as a newborn when it comes to writing the computer programs for these half-baked situations:

Just how much work does it take to write these commands? Is the program 14,984,875,356 lines of commands long? If the program were to be printed out, would it take ten million reams of 8 1/2x11 paper? Are there diagnostic programs available to check for errors in the original program? Are these programs written in uncommon and specialty languages that only a handful of people know?

I am not trying to be snarky here; please do not infer otherwise. I do not understand the computer program industry. I do not understand the ethical and moral obligations that computer programmers and their companies have to the public. I do not understand the difference between the quality standards of conventional tangible consumer goods like clothing, food, household appliances, etc. and their counterparts in the intangible computer programs and software business.

Is it too much to ask that a "finished product" should function as intended, whether it is tangible like a refrigerator or intangible like a computer program?

 

[BertL]

Since I am a totally ignorant fool and naive as a newborn when it comes to writing the computer programs for these half-baked situations:

Just how much work does it take to write these commands? Is the program 14,984,875,356 lines of commands long? If the program were to be printed out, would it take ten million reams of 8 1/2x11 paper? Are there diagnostic programs available to check for errors in the original program? Are these programs written in uncommon and specialty languages that only a handful of people know?

I am not trying to be snarky here; please do not infer otherwise. I do not understand the computer program industry. I do not understand the ethical and moral obligations that computer programmers and their companies have to the public. I do not understand the difference between the quality standards of conventional tangible consumer goods like clothing, food, household appliances, etc. and their counterparts in the intangible computer programs and software business.

Is it too much to ask that a "finished product" should function as intended, whether it is tangible like a refrigerator or intangible like a computer program?

IMHO, as a guy that used to do software programming, and setup and ran large remote technical support centers to work between customers and our hardware/software divisions, your expectation is not off-base. As to how much work it is, people here can only speculate since all the code is proprietary to Tesla. I would offer that since it's all Tesla code (unlike the challenges nearly every other auto mfgr has using a bunch of 3rd party components they have to cobble together), it is something Tesla could accomplish if they were to prioritize it.

I personally think it's not on Elon and Tesla's radar in-part because there hasn't been the same sort of "noise in the system" from a smaller number of earlier owners, or growing cost e.g. incurred by SCs having to fix and replace hardware that forces their hand to re-engineer something (early windshields, door handles, 12V, etc.). It's why I took the personal time to both document and report each failure I have encountered to my SC the last time I was there, and plan to continue doing so, along with my writing a business-like letter to Tesla Customer Support to formally document my concern with a specific list of unresolved software problems and basic functional deficiencies. I personally hope everyone does the same, and do not only vocalize on forums like TMC to help their and other enthusiast's soul. Volumes of real customers, with examples how the problems impact them, voicing their concern directly to Tesla will make a difference in the end -- at least it will with companies that have those operational processes in place that ultimately trigger executive visibility to growing customer dissatisfaction.

 

[Mark Z]

I am keeping my dissatisfaction simple.

The Model S and the Cadillac Escalade are being retained. Model X will sit in the garage while waiting for Tesla to order parts. All three vehicles will be compared when fully operational to decide what vehicle is best to use. Over time, I will know what to save and what to sell.

 

[calisnow]

Elon lives in L.A. and commutes to work in his Tesla I believe. If you guys are really serious about getting his attention - how hard would it be to organize a publicity stunt where you set some protesters up with signs outside 10911 Chalon Road in Bel Air (where he is guaranteed to personally notice - as opposed to the company HQ where he might not take the correct entrance and his "people" shield him from the angry owners) and call a few reporters ahead of time. Get an embarrassing article in the L.A. Times about how Tesla owners are so frustrated with their half-baked software that the company has ignored for years that they started protesting outside the CEO's house.

I bet that would get a team on these bugs and fixed in a jiffy.

I believe it is perfectly legal to protest on public property in a residential neighborhood in California with no permit if one is not blocking traffic. Look at the attached photo - the gate on the right is Elon's house. The strip of grass on the left is either public property or part of the neighbor's yard (if it is the neighbor's yard I'm not sure why the fence is set back - maybe code requirements?). Station a few protesting people with signs standing in the gutter directly outside the gate during morning hours for a couple weeks with signs and a well written document to give Elon with a list of the bugs if he is courteous enough to stop to talk to the people - and maybe a link to the forum discussion.

Keep the group polite and respectful - yet clearly visible. This stunt wouldn't work with any other company but with Tesla it just might. And before anybody goes saying this is stalkerish - his address has been published in the news and these neighborhoods are filled with celebrities and tour buses pointing out their homes. It comes with the territory.

 

[yak-55]

I'll fix stuff for free in my spare time and send them a patch. I have a list of annoyances that are entirely trivial to fix. Give me access to the code.

Why not open source the "old stuff" they can't or won't update/refresh. I have no doubt we would see accelerated development and more options for entertainment, nav, web browser, etc. Let the in house folks focus on autopilot or X or III or whatever is "new and sexy" (or considered a proprietary advantage/differentiator). If properly architected the two (proprietary and open source) should be able to co-exist ...

 

[bob_p]

Unless Tesla designed this in from the beginning, it's very likely they can't allow 3rd parties to develop software that runs in the onboard systems - because of the risk the software could access a critical function impacting driving or safety. While it's pretty well understood how to build a software architecture that allows a "protected" environment for running applications, unless the original software was designed that way, trying to retrofit that into what they already have could easily cost more than throwing everything out and starting over.

So expecting Tesla to open source anything that runs in the car or allow random programmers to provide software updates - will likely never happen.

I hate to complain, without providing constructive suggestions - so here are a few of my suggestions for fixing these issues.

1 - dedicate at least a few programmers to fix bugs and address deficiencies in previously released apps (playlists? - Android app still in beta???)

2 - throw out the Navigon/Google maps combination - and provide a single app for navigation, using online maps

3 - work with a 3rd party (Apple, Android, Bosch, QNX, ...) to provide complete smartphone integration

4 - get current owners more involved - poll them for feedback on current and proposed improvements - and get more owners involved in beta testing

5 - add a "rollback to previous stable release" option for software releases, so that owners can back out changes they don't like

Tesla's goal should be to bring the quality and functionality of their software up to a level matching the market-leading hardware - and get to the point where owners prefer to use the car's built in software/console instead of using their smartphones for basic features like media playback or navigation.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I agree with most of that. If you allow 3rd-party apps on the center console, you should consider the console compromised. At the same time, the console controls a number of important systems. From what we've seen Tesla did a good job of securing the critical systems and segregating them from the console, but it has access to enough control operations to pose a risk. I assumed they'd open things up to a few select firms as partners, rather than providing wide-spread 3rd-party access.

As an aside, #2 in your list would be extremely frustrating if not handled properly. I'm regularly out of cellular range, and losing maps would be terrible. I spend a good amount of time with the center console maps blank (even though they're cached), going by the instrument cluster only. Even if they cache enough of the map tiles, you'd be without route calculation unless they downloaded routing information as well (does Google allow this now? They didn't use to.). Figuring out what and how far to cache, and when to update and flush the caches, would be a tricky task. The fully-offline database is a nice backup, currently.

 

[Spidy]

Does anyone think the reason for lack of map updates could be license costs? Navigon charges up to 100€ (e.g. VW Europe update on their website). With a 100000 cars we are talking about up to 10million every 2 years and obviously even more as the fleet grows.

Also they are probably paying quite a bit for google by now.
https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/usage-limits
https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/usage

 

[gizmoboy]

Completely agree.

My favorite word I used to use with my mgrs and HIPO across my team I spoke with one-on-one, is something I learned from a mentor of mine very early in my career: BALANCE.

As much as I really do love my MS and what it stands for in our future potential, that is what seems to have been lost with Elon and Tesla in recent times. There is so much focus on the future, delivering various beta code and new capabilities, then moving on to the next big idea before the last one was perfected enough in the eyes of the real Customers that own and drive their MS every day. We want those future capabilities, but also Tesla, PLEASE, pull back just a bit and continually deliver against the little things owners use many times every day that won't detract, and only add to the joy and satisfaction owning a Tesla brings to each of us.

I think the future is so much bigger in their eyes than the current that it's easy to focus on it too much.

That's not a great way to run a word-of-mouth driven business... but I'm not truly convinced that these kinds of cars are all that word-of-mouth driven, either (no matter what we all might like to believe or for which we have anecdotal counter-examples).

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I agree with most of that. If you allow 3rd-party apps on the center console, you should consider the console compromised. At the same time, the console controls a number of important systems. From what we've seen Tesla did a good job of securing the critical systems and segregating them from the console, but it has access to enough control operations to pose a risk. I assumed they'd open things up to a few select firms as partners, rather than providing wide-spread 3rd-party access.

I don't see the business model in this. It sounds more idealistic than realistic.

The recently-stated approach of allowing iOS and Android devices to project onto the screen sounds more promising (and practical) to me.

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So expecting Tesla to open source anything that runs in the car or allow random programmers to provide software updates - will likely never happen.

I agree.

3 - work with a 3rd party (Apple, Android, Bosch, QNX, ...) to provide complete smartphone integration

A to the men.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I don't see the business model in this. It sounds more idealistic than realistic.
The recently-stated approach of allowing iOS and Android devices to project onto the screen sounds more promising (and practical) to me.

I mean, other than the fact they were already doing it that way by implementing services from select partners (and have continued to do so, adding Spotify recently)? I don't know if it's particularly unrealistic, either, given it's how the other automakers are handling their in-car native app ecosystems.

I agree the more recent statements are more exciting, but you'd hope that'd be the case after several years of thinking about how to implement this.

 

[brooklynrab]

BertL if you put up your comprehensive "To-Do" list, I'm sure most of us would sign onto it for it to be delivered to Tesla like a petition.

IMHO, as a guy that used to do software programming, and setup and ran large remote technical support centers to work between customers and our hardware/software divisions, your expectation is not off-base. As to how much work it is, people here can only speculate since all the code is proprietary to Tesla. I would offer that since it's all Tesla code (unlike the challenges nearly every other auto mfgr has using a bunch of 3rd party components they have to cobble together), it is something Tesla could accomplish if they were to prioritize it.

I personally think it's not on Elon and Tesla's radar in-part because there hasn't been the same sort of "noise in the system" from a smaller number of earlier owners, or growing cost e.g. incurred by SCs having to fix and replace hardware that forces their hand to re-engineer something (early windshields, door handles, 12V, etc.). It's why I took the personal time to both document and report each failure I have encountered to my SC the last time I was there, and plan to continue doing so, along with my writing a business-like letter to Tesla Customer Support to formally document my concern with a specific list of unresolved software problems and basic functional deficiencies. I personally hope everyone does the same, and do not only vocalize on forums like TMC to help their and other enthusiast's soul. Volumes of real customers, with examples how the problems impact them, voicing their concern directly to Tesla will make a difference in the end -- at least it will with companies that have those operational processes in place that ultimately trigger executive visibility to growing customer dissatisfaction.

 

[bridaus]

This thread cracks me up. Is anyone in this thread that is proposing management changes at Tesla a qualified visionary who has shown up all their competition with a truly disruptive product?

Anyone able to state the last year a successful car company was started? With a completely different method of propulsion?

I drove my year old Mercedes with its Comand system to my test drive. The difference was unbelievable. Mercedes is so far behind its laughable. If Tesla's worst is that much better than Mercedes, I can't wait to see their best!

PS: Nothing wrong with wanting them to do better. It's just the idea that we know better than some of the finest minds on the planet... There are open positions at Tesla.

 

[Spidy]

I drove my year old Mercedes with its Comand system to my test drive. The difference was unbelievable. Mercedes is so far behind its laughable. If Tesla's worst is that much better than Mercedes, I can't wait to see their best!

Navigation and phone connectivity have always worked perfectly and that's what I need 99% of the time for my daily driving.

 

[bridaus]

Navigation and phone connectivity have always worked perfectly and that's what I need 99% of the time for my daily driving.

For me: Waze >> Tesla >>>> Comand.

Put Waze on Tesla screen = Heaven.

The Tesla phone connectivity worked fine for me in my limited testing. Maybe I'll change my mind when I start using it regularly.

 

[BertL]

This thread cracks me up. Is anyone in this thread that is proposing management changes at Tesla a qualified visionary who has shown up all their competition with a truly disruptive product?

Anyone able to state the last year a successful car company was started? With a completely different method of propulsion?

I drove my year old Mercedes with its Comand system to my test drive. The difference was unbelievable. Mercedes is so far behind its laughable. If Tesla's worst is that much better than Mercedes, I can't wait to see their best!

PS: Nothing wrong with wanting them to do better. It's just the idea that we know better than some of the finest minds on the planet... There are open positions at Tesla.

At least from my POV, I do not, and have never suggested mgmt changes. We need a visionary, and I for one greatly appreciate what Elon has and will likely do. Some of us owners are suggesting as Tesla approaches maturity, they must demonstrate a much higher level of operational excellence at the same time they move the world into the future. THAT is the issue -- not doing enough of both at the same time.

Acknowledged software bugs need resolution in a timely manner -- no different than if any owner had a hardware failure a SC could resolve as part of Tesla's warranty obligation. Documenting a problem will be resolved in a future software update, then never providing an ETA and the actual fix in a reasonable timeframe is simply unacceptable.

As a start-up business, I get perhaps Elon's strategy is to provide just enough of every capability so Tesla appears on checklists as having everything the competition does -- then he presses further providing unique functions like AutoPilot to differentiate Tesla's brand. I'd do the same. What saddens me is to continually discover more owners here on TMC who also become increasingly disappointed because (basic) functions or features we used every day in previous vehicles before coming to MS -- and still want to use perhaps multiple times every time we drive our new more-expensive Tesla luxury sedan -- are not there or not as capable as they could be if Tesla provided software improvements to meet real owner requirements. Some of those things may not be important to Elon himself or every owner, and won't gain broad publicity if they are introduced, but are very important to others so it does not distract from the owner's joy and satisfaction owing an MS. No business can do everything, but what I think many of us are saying is even more of a demonstrated slow-and-steady improvement bringing the basics up-to-snuff with the competition, would be preferable to the almost no movement we have seen while Autopilot and new Performane features are almost exclusively focused on. Nearly every model in the fleet could benefit from improvements to what I call "the basics" -- like Infotainment -- unlike a subset of the fleet that have enabled Autopilot or "P" options both today and tomorrow.