In the decade or so before the pandemic, I had to travel to Dallas a few times per year and drive back and forth DFW-Park Central area. I'm not sure I can remember a time when there wasn't major construction along the way, and you'd better not be too hesitant in figuring out what lane to be. I wonder if today's FSD would have helped or hurt on those drives.
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Tesla Radar Speculation
- Thread starter Takaa
- Start date
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting the idea there's any magic "high density area only" certification of the system?
It's certified for divided freeways of at least two lanes at speeds of up to 60 km/h (or about 37 mph). That's it.
There's absolutely nothing requiring any specific "density" of anything other than "there must be 1 car in front of you".
It requires a car in front of it to activate because the entire point of the system is operating in traffic at or below its own max speed. Which is a condition that would not exist on a freeway with no car in front of you.
It requires 0 OTHER cars though.
See above. It's a traffic jam assist system- without a lead car there'd be no traffic to assist with.
The same is true of autopilot- officially anyway. Tesla tells you multiple times it's intended only for such roads- even though they let you activate it elsewhere.
Sure... again it's a traffic jam system. Mercedes in confident in taking the entire DDT in these situations. Tesla is currently not confident taking it in ANY situation.
Both of these might well be true- but I can't find anything in the manual that says so... do you have a citation for these?
FWIW the manual specifically calls out it CAN pull itself to the side and even stop to make room for emergency vehicles.
MB manual said:
It doesn't seem it'll do that if you simply ignore the takeover message though.
The fact it can't safely stop on its own is literally what makes it L3 instead of L4
The defining difference is that L3 when it needs to leave the ODD it's capable of operating in requires a human to act as the fallback driver.
An L4 system does not, and can "fail safely" without one.
Sleeping is not considered a valid activity for any L3 system.
They DO list things that are ok in the manual though:
MB manual said:
<citation required for your claim Volvo says it'll be ok to sleep with an L3 system>
Plus- of course- LOTS of folks have "plans" for advanced driver systems.... remember when Audi had "plans" to launch L3 back in 2017?
Actually I went to check myself....
Move over Tesla, this self-driving car will let you sleep or watch a movie during your highway commute
Volvo is aiming for Level 4 autonomy by 2021 with its next generation of self-driving XC90 SUVs.www.cnbc.com
That's Volvo indeed promising they will offer a car within 3 years you can "eat, sleep, work" and so on in.
Unfortunately they promised that in... 2018....Not far behind Audi there
They HAVE commented on their plans more recently.... a little over a year ago they said it would launch at some....undetermined date in the future... starting in California...
Volvo Cars’ unsupervised autonomous driving feature Ride Pilot to debut in California
Volvo Cars will introduce its unsupervised autonomous driving feature Ride Pilot to customers in the state of California first.www.media.volvocars.com
Volvo said:
Sleeping is notably absent from the list.
I didn't find anything newer than about Jan. 2022 as above though... did they more recently add sleep back to their "someday" promises?
Don't get me wrong--- I'm not super impressed with MBs offering here other than their confidence in assuming legal liability for it... But nobody ELSE has been willing to, so points to them for doing it.
Ideally once it gets into its first few accidents... and it certainly WILL be involved in accidents... we can start getting some legal case law as a framework for how this stuff will be handled.... and how that turns out will likely either encourage, or discourage, other car makers to start following suit.
If Tesla has actually solved the "hit stationary things partly in your lane" issue that legacy NoA still has when they go to the FSDb stack on highways I see little reason, other than concern for legal liability issues, they couldn't offer the same thing Mercedes is, but with a higher top speed and no lead car requirement.
Another red alert on a 11 AM bright sun and minimal moisture on the car, just as we were passing an off ramp in the right lane.
Only 1 other car in front of us, and distance was set to 6. No camera blinded alerts or slow downs... just panic and scare everyone in the car...
My wife's response, "you're car sure is stupid"
Only 1 other car in front of us, and distance was set to 6. No camera blinded alerts or slow downs... just panic and scare everyone in the car...
My wife's response, "you're car sure is stupid"
This may not have had anything to do with driving the car, but instead was a software crash or camera that went down. I've had a repeater camera go out while on the freeway and got the red take over without warning. Pulled over and powered off the car to reset the cameras and continued the trip.
If it happens again, press the voice button afterward and say "bug report". Then open a service ticket and reference it. They may be able to tell you why.
Ughhhh . Please read Mercedes own publication where they claim they got L3 for low density areas. I am not the one making this up. They are.Where are you getting the idea there's any magic "high density area only" certification of the system?
It's certified for divided freeways of at least two lanes at speeds of up to 60 km/h (or about 37 mph). That's it.
There's absolutely nothing requiring any specific "density" of anything other than "there must be 1 car in front of you".
It requires a car in front of it to activate because the entire point of the system is operating in traffic at or below its own max speed. Which is a condition that would not exist on a freeway with no car in front of you.
It requires 0 OTHER cars though.
See above. It's a traffic jam assist system- without a lead car there'd be no traffic to assist with.
The same is true of autopilot- officially anyway. Tesla tells you multiple times it's intended only for such roads- even though they let you activate it elsewhere.
Sure... again it's a traffic jam system. Mercedes in confident in taking the entire DDT in these situations. Tesla is currently not confident taking it in ANY situation.
Both of these might well be true- but I can't find anything in the manual that says so... do you have a citation for these?
FWIW the manual specifically calls out it CAN pull itself to the side and even stop to make room for emergency vehicles.
It doesn't seem it'll do that if you simply ignore the takeover message though.
The fact it can't safely stop on its own is literally what makes it L3 instead of L4
The defining difference is that L3 when it needs to leave the ODD it's capable of operating in requires a human to act as the fallback driver.
An L4 system does not, and can "fail safely" without one.
Sleeping is not considered a valid activity for any L3 system.
They DO list things that are ok in the manual though:
<citation required for your claim Volvo says it'll be ok to sleep with an L3 system>
Plus- of course- LOTS of folks have "plans" for advanced driver systems.... remember when Audi had "plans" to launch L3 back in 2017?
Actually I went to check myself....
Move over Tesla, this self-driving car will let you sleep or watch a movie during your highway commute
Volvo is aiming for Level 4 autonomy by 2021 with its next generation of self-driving XC90 SUVs.
That's Volvo indeed promising they will offer a car within 3 years you can "eat, sleep, work" and so on in.
Unfortunately they promised that in... 2018....Not far behind Audi there
They HAVE commented on their plans more recently.... a little over a year ago they said it would launch at some....undetermined date in the future... starting in California...
Volvo Cars’ unsupervised autonomous driving feature Ride Pilot to debut in California
Volvo Cars will introduce its unsupervised autonomous driving feature Ride Pilot to customers in the state of California first.
Sleeping is notably absent from the list.
I didn't find anything newer than about Jan. 2022 as above though... did they more recently add sleep back to their "someday" promises?
Don't get me wrong--- I'm not super impressed with MBs offering here other than their confidence in assuming legal liability for it... But nobody ELSE has been willing to, so points to them for doing it.
Ideally once it gets into its first few accidents... and it certainly WILL be involved in accidents... we can start getting some legal case law as a framework for how this stuff will be handled.... and how that turns out will likely either encourage, or discourage, other car makers to start following suit.
If Tesla has actually solved the "hit stationary things partly in your lane" issue that legacy NoA still has when they go to the FSDb stack on highways I see little reason, other than concern for legal liability issues, they couldn't offer the same thing Mercedes is, but with a higher top speed and no lead car requirement.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I did. The actual owners manual. Which is what I cited with the type of road it's certified for L3 use on.
It doesn't claim what you say it claims.
<citation required>
Only someone like you will read the owners manual before buying a car. The rest of us will read this:
Mercedes-Benz world’s first automotive company to certify SAE Level 3 system for U.S. market | Mercedes-Benz Group
Mercedes-Benz is the world’s first automotive company to bring SAE Level 3 conditionally automated driving to the U.S., with Nevada being the first state to confirm the compliance of the system with state regulations.
group.mercedes-benz.com
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
And only someone like you would repeatedly insist they know how something works without reading the manual
Anyway what you cite isn't any aspect of any 'certification' it's a PR announcement.
Nor does the Nevada thing require any such a thing regarding "traffic density"
The law they cite can be seen here-
The actual requirements to BE certified in the state are here:
It has no requirement whatsoever around "density" of traffic.
The only things it certifies are:
The vehicle is insured.
The vehicle can obey all traffic laws.
and for L3 specifically (L4 is a different section) the car is:
Equipped with a means to engage and disengage the automated driving system which is easily accessible to
the human operator of the autonomous vehicle.
__________ Equipped with an indicator located inside the autonomous vehicle which indicates when the automated driving
system is operating the autonomous vehicle.
__________ Equipped with a means to alert the human operator to take manual control of the autonomous vehicle if a
failure of the system occurs which renders the automated driving system unable to perform the dynamic driving
task relevant to its intended operation design domain.
Note the lack of any "certification" of any kind about the required density of traffic? There's not even a place on the form you'd indicate anything about that.
So no, it is not "certified only for high density" traffic.
Nor- as pointed out- does the actual operator manual have any such requirement.
The owners manual describes how, when, and where the actual function of the system operates and includes no traffic density requirement of any kind other than needing a single lead vehicle (because the entire point of the system is to operate in traffic)
I think the density comment is referring to the Level 3 functionality specifically being a Traffic Jam Assist and that it will only function that way within traffic jams. There are scenarios where you could be forced down to <40 mph on a highway, not in a traffic jam, and I'd imagine the system will not function there, ie when travelling through a section of highway construction.
Actually quite curious what that means, whether it will function simply with a lead car or if it scans around you in other adjacent lanes. It might be less about the certification and more about Mercedes' own risk tolerance, they might be limiting above and beyond the certification. If people read this, maybe there wouldn't be so many uninformed comments on Twitter to the tune of "huehue use this if you want to get rear-ended on the highway".
Actually quite curious what that means, whether it will function simply with a lead car or if it scans around you in other adjacent lanes. It might be less about the certification and more about Mercedes' own risk tolerance, they might be limiting above and beyond the certification. If people read this, maybe there wouldn't be so many uninformed comments on Twitter to the tune of "huehue use this if you want to get rear-ended on the highway".
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Since it can't change lanes I can't imagine why it would care, or require, if there's cars in other lanes. Nor are they mentioned in the operations or requirements in the manual.
The only requirement regarding other vehicles described is there must be a lead car that is:
Not outside a certain distance range in front of you
and
Not going faster than ~60 kph/37 mph
That's it.
Yup that makes sense, I think it's just driving home the point that it's a Traffic Jam Assist and Traffic Jams are high density in nature.
Apropos of nothing, the last time I renewed my Nevada driver's license, I checked a box on the form labeled "autonomous vehicle operator", and now have this endorsement on my license. Nothing was required other than checking the box.And only someone like you would repeatedly insist they know how something works without reading the manual
Anyway what you cite isn't any aspect of any 'certification' it's a PR announcement.
Nor does the Nevada thing require any such a thing regarding "traffic density"
The law they cite can be seen here-
The actual requirements to BE certified in the state are here:
Attachments
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Exactly.... far as I can tell most states that allow AVs at all their "certification" process is all variations on "Car maker certifies it obeys traffic laws and meets the SAE definitions for whatever level they're claiming" and not really anything else.
There's no distinctions at all, nor does the state seem to care, regarding the ODD of any L3 or L4 system, and they certainly don't "certify" anything about it.
You are still missing the big picture. If a PR announcement is irrelevant, then why make one?And only someone like you would repeatedly insist they know how something works without reading the manual
Anyway what you cite isn't any aspect of any 'certification' it's a PR announcement.
Nor does the Nevada thing require any such a thing regarding "traffic density"
The law they cite can be seen here-
The actual requirements to BE certified in the state are here:
It has no requirement whatsoever around "density" of traffic.
The only things it certifies are:
The vehicle is insured.
The vehicle can obey all traffic laws.
and for L3 specifically (L4 is a different section) the car is:
Equipped with a means to engage and disengage the automated driving system which is easily accessible to
the human operator of the autonomous vehicle.
__________ Equipped with an indicator located inside the autonomous vehicle which indicates when the automated driving
system is operating the autonomous vehicle.
__________ Equipped with a means to alert the human operator to take manual control of the autonomous vehicle if a
failure of the system occurs which renders the automated driving system unable to perform the dynamic driving
task relevant to its intended operation design domain.
Note the lack of any "certification" of any kind about the required density of traffic? There's not even a place on the form you'd indicate anything about that.
So no, it is not "certified only for high density" traffic.
Nor- as pointed out- does the actual operator manual have any such requirement.
The owners manual describes how, when, and where the actual function of the system operates and includes no traffic density requirement of any kind other than needing a single lead vehicle (because the entire point of the system is to operate in traffic)
Please do your homework on the purpose of a PR announcement from a potential customers viewpoint and we will continue the discussion further.
Keep in mind that the potential customer is not going to read the owners manual nor going to go to the state or federal authorities to find out what certifications it has been granted/approved.
Is that driver's license endorsement actually required in Nevada to drive the Mercedes in Level 3 or can you drive it without the endorsement?
I presume it does nothing yet for Tesla as they have not registered for autonomous vehicle status.
Does your self-certified endorsement require you to have actually completed any kind of training or possess certain knowledge on autonomous vehicles (should they ever ask to see it)?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Is...that a serious question?
If you're unclear on the different intent of marketing and actual manuals and legal documents you'll probably want to avoid making any further nonsensical claims about what was "certified" for what or not.
Anyway- to sum up, you claimed:
Which is a nonsense claim.
It is not "only certified L3 in high density areas"
There's no such thing as "certified L3 in high density areas"-- and I linked you to the actual certification form Mercedes would have to fill out to show you there's not even a question about it.
The vehicle is either certified L3, at all, or it's not.
and also:
Which, again, is a nonsensical statement that demonstrates ignorance of the actual laws, rules, and certifications covering self driving in the jurisdictions it's allowed.
The certification with Nevada says the car is L3. Period end of sentence.
Not "L3 in specific places" or anything like that.
The owners manual does tell you where the system is intended to be used... but makes no mention at all of traffic density beyond requiring a single lead car.
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As best I can tell, the endorsement is for people testing actual L4/L5 autonomous vehicles, which must also have a $5 million insurance policy. No training or knowledge seems to be required. It’s almost as though politicians write stupid laws without considering all the things they should…
What are the Laws in Nevada for Self-Driving Cars? - Gina Corena & Associates Car Accident Lawyers
Self-driving cars are quickly changing the transportation landscape across the United States. In fact, by 2025 there may be 8 million autonomous or
www.corenalaw.com
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Obviously Volvo’s system would be awesome if it existed. It sounds like L4 to me and because their goal is get it approved in California it will have to comply with the SAE taxonomy (unless the rules change.)
What indication was provided that led you to believe a repeater camera went out?
Mine just panicked so I disengaged AP. No alerts otherwise.
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