Is the product or the service bad? Is behavior a product of both?
Hey I've been married for 35 years.
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Discussion: Tesla Energy / Auto Customer Service
- Thread starter jimm01
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- elon is an ass
Hey I've been married for 35 years.
It seemed like you were you implying that. Good you clarified that overworked employees is not an acceptable excuse for Tesla Energy's bad customer service.
"In calendar 2020, GM, Ford, and Tesla together paid out $7.22 billion in claims, a reduction of just over $600 million from their combined 2019 totals. That represents a -7.7% overall decline, but it's merely an average of three very different stories. GM's claims cost fell by less than -1% in 2020. Ford's fell by -14%. And Tesla's claims cost actually rose by +25%, from $250 million in 2019 to $312 million in 2020"
Under normal operation the human brain does not like uncertainty and loves short cuts (bias). In times of stress the decisionmaker is the subcortex. This does not bode well for the overworked.
Considering Tesla's volume is also going through the roof I'm not surprised to see overall warranty costs go up to hah. I think the warranty costs as a % of revenue is still a healthy amount for Tesla (healthy in terms of the accrual; not healthy in terms of their spending).
I think if Tesla actually had more service centers scattered around (for both Energy and Auto) it'd go a long way to improving their after-sales support. I'm really baffled why Elon seems ok with the best tech being serviced by an overworked staff. Getting the service up is easier than getting the tech up. It's usually just a matter of having the dollars to spend provisioned for that purpose.
He's already got the really tough tech stuff at the bleeding edge of awesome, now he just needs some more people to support the units in the field (roads and rooftops).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think the idea was many issues can be handled OTA and also by mobile service (something traditional automakers didn't use), so they didn't want to open too many service centers. Of course there are plenty of issues that can't be handled that way, so as those grow in proportion, this will become an issue (as their growth rate is way outpacing the opening of service centers).
However, some of these issues are also from roadblocks put up by none other than the dealer groups. There are a couple states where Tesla is banned from opening a service center all, and the number may grow as dealer groups step up efforts to block Tesla (and other newcomers that may intend to do direct sales).
Tesla US dealership disputes - Wikipedia
Yup, all of these were in northern CA, SF bay area. Although I'm sure could happen anywhere.
Note to Elon, from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (not that he'll ever read this):
"Stuckness shouldn't be avoided. It's the psychic predecessor of all real understanding. An egoless acceptance of stuckness is a key to an understanding of all Quality, in mechanical work as in other endeavors. It's this understanding of Quality as revealed by stuckness which so often makes self-taught mechanics so superior to institute-trained men who have learned how to handle everything except a new situation."
"Stuckness shouldn't be avoided. It's the psychic predecessor of all real understanding. An egoless acceptance of stuckness is a key to an understanding of all Quality, in mechanical work as in other endeavors. It's this understanding of Quality as revealed by stuckness which so often makes self-taught mechanics so superior to institute-trained men who have learned how to handle everything except a new situation."
Yeah, the NADA and other dealer networks are fighting Tesla on who owns the service/showroom thing. I don't think either are taking a good approach. But since they're dealing with laws... there is no winner. Legal policy is such a bottom-barrel world that it's always easy to find examples of weird behavior when you look into those proceedings.
But, if you take a step back and get to the crux of what the issue is, you will see why I personally do not like Tesla owning their entire sales and service channel. Tesla Energy actually has a "partner" network for Powerwalls that I believe is more similar to what the NADA and other state-proponents want. Basically Tesla will resell Powerwalls through 3rd parties (at least, before the chip shortage) and actually had a healthy network of boots-on-the-ground locals that were providing exceptional service.
Look at Cobalt Power Systems. Edit: (Almost) all 5 star reviews. This is what you get with a local shop that is incentivized to care about its customers, employees, and community. Three things you know for sure Tesla cannot prioritize because Tesla is a corporate entity that will beat the ever living hell out of its workers as it pursues maximum revenue and profit margin. From what I gather, people actually like working for Cobalt. I can't imagine the Tesla Energy folks that can't keep up with all the PTO demand like what they're doing as much.
Cobalt Power Systems - Mountain View, CA
Specialties: Cobalt Power Systems designs, sells and installs complete photovoltaic (PV) energy solutions for your residence or business. We've installed over 2,600 PV systems in the Bay Area and across Northern California. Whether your system is roof mounted, ground mounted, battery powered...
www.yelp.com
H2ofun went through V3. He'll Edit: (Almost) post in every thread here that V3 did better for him than what Tesla Energy (and in my case Sunrun) failed to do for the bargain-chasing crowd. V3 unfortunately is an installer partner of Sunrun, Sunnova, and other large corporates. So V3's BBB got dinged as customers got confused and think they're somehow an arm of those corporates. And I guess V3 has some somewhat lackluster sales processes. But in general if you look at the pure service V3 provides to homeowners, it's Edit: (Almost) 5 stars. They take care of their customers, employees, and are a community partner too.
V3 Electric - Profile & Reviews - 2024 | EnergySage
Read reviews for V3 Electric, a Energy Efficiency, Solar PV, Energy Storage company since 2014 based in El Dorado Hills, CA.
www.energysage.com
I used to work in corporate auto. I know there were some trash dealers that really sucked... and were very negative examples of dealers we wished would go away but couldn't get rid of. So the dealer model isn't perfect either. But to me, the typical service goes up with locals that care. And I am very confident that more people would rather work for a local shop than deal with the draconian beat-down that a corporate managed channel will require. It turns out it's easier to be a complete dick to people if you're sitting in some cushy HQ somewhere sending email directives than if you have to work alongside your people.
Tesla stands to lose billions if it gets forced into an independently owned sales channel. So they'll fight it to the end. And I believe Tesla's fight is a fight against overall long-term customer benefit as it holds onto its profits. Don't get me wrong, PG&E is way worse than Tesla; so on the scale of being a-holes Tesla is doing pretty good for the customer compared to some others. But they've a similar motive.... they want that $.
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Yeah, the NADA and other dealer networks are fighting Tesla on who owns the service/showroom thing. I don't think either are taking a good approach. But since they're dealing with laws... there is no winner. Legal policy is such a bottom-barrel world that it's always easy to find examples of weird behavior when you look into those proceedings.
But, if you take a step back and get to the crux of what the issue is, you will see why I personally do not like Tesla owning their entire sales and service channel. Tesla Energy actually has a "partner" network for Powerwalls that I believe is more similar to what the NADA and other state-proponents want. Basically Tesla will resell Powerwalls through 3rd parties (at least, before the chip shortage) and actually had a healthy network of boots-on-the-ground locals that were providing exceptional service.
Look at Cobalt Power Systems. Edit: (Almost) all 5 star reviews. This is what you get with a local shop that is incentivized to care about its customers, employees, and community. Three things you know for sure Tesla cannot prioritize because Tesla is a corporate entity that will beat the ever living hell out of its workers as it pursues maximum revenue and profit margin. From what I gather, people actually like working for Cobalt. I can't imagine the Tesla Energy folks that can't keep up with all the PTO demand like what they're doing as much.
Cobalt Power Systems - Mountain View, CA
Specialties: Cobalt Power Systems designs, sells and installs complete photovoltaic (PV) energy solutions for your residence or business. We've installed over 2,600 PV systems in the Bay Area and across Northern California. Whether your system is roof mounted, ground mounted, battery powered...
H2ofun went through V3. He'll Edit: (Almost) post in every thread here that V3 did better for him than what Tesla Energy (and in my case Sunrun) failed to do for the bargain-chasing crowd. V3 unfortunately is an installer partner of Sunrun, Sunnova, and other large corporates. So V3's BBB got dinged as customers got confused and think they're somehow an arm of those corporates. And I guess V3 has some somewhat lackluster sales processes. But in general if you look at the pure service V3 provides to homeowners, it's Edit: (Almost) 5 stars. They take care of their customers, employees, and are a community partner too.
V3 Electric - Profile & Reviews - 2024 | EnergySage
Read reviews for V3 Electric, a Energy Efficiency, Solar PV, Energy Storage company since 2014 based in El Dorado Hills, CA.
I used to work in corporate auto. I know there were some trash dealers that really sucked... and were very negative examples of dealers we wished would go away but couldn't get rid of. So the dealer model isn't perfect either. But to me, the typical service goes up with locals that care. And I am very confident that more people would rather work for a local shop than deal with the draconian beat-down that a corporate managed channel will require. It turns out it's easier to be a complete dick to people if you're sitting in some cushy HQ somewhere sending email directives than if you have to work alongside your people.
Tesla stands to lose billions if it gets forced into an independently owned sales channel. So they'll fight it to the end. And I believe Tesla's fight is a fight against overall long-term customer benefit as it holds onto its profits. Don't get me wrong, PG&E is way worse than Tesla; so on the scale of being a-holes Tesla is doing pretty good for the customer compared to some others. But they've a similar motive.... they want that $.
It would seem to me franchise agreements could be made to limit the negative and accentuate the positive. However, as you infer there are individual State franchise laws, and lawmakers, with their thumbs on the scale. As someone who has always serviced and done major repairs on his own vehicles I don’t represent the majority. So my comments on ‘dealer’ service need to be carefully scrutinized. Having said that the biggest impediment to self-servicing an automobile are the manufactures themselves with restriction use of proprietary information and intellectual property. Automobiles are becoming closed systems (at least until the hacktivist arrive). However, this problem is beyond the scope of what I wish to discuss.
Your comment on vehicle service being lucrative profit center for a dealership is well taken. In support of that I would like to point out the ‘idea’ of the convenience of servicing a vehicle at dealership where it was purchased is not the same as it was 40 years ago. Back then there were three Chevrolet dealerships within 10 miles of my home, now there are none (some hung on until the Great Recession). As was the case of European and Japanese (now Korean) vehicles there is typically one dealership of a particular brand per county. Tesla as well Volvo, Mini Cooper Alfa Romeo, Fiat, and others are all equality inconvenient. In terms of trends I can see where the convince aspect of servicing a vehicle at the place of purchase will be like water and seek the same level.
Note: One thing I am aware of is an instance where a GM dealership advocated for the customer for warranty work. This was 40 years ago when GM put THM-200 transmissions in larger vehicles. In any case the few times I’ve had warranty work performed the service was performed OK (in one instance they broke the instrument cluster and tried to blame it on me). However, I don’t know if this holds true in general.
Today price competition is driven by the internet and with fewer ‘local’ dealerships they are not divers of lower prices, however they are capture by it. The information available to customers today makes it hard to overcharge. Of course this may not matter if customers are willing to pay a premium or in a manufacture enforces one price fits all model. I’ve lived in areas where franchise agreements limited competition and drove up price. This was pre-internet and no longer living those states I don’t know what it’s like today. In any case, recent experience leads me to believe with one dealership per county price competition and the internet price competition is alive and well. However, with if and when dealerships become fewer and far between, along with proprietary service and repair, I’ve believe this trend is reversing. If so franchise agreements may increase the total cost of ownership. So as you say with the “bottom-barrel world” of legal policy, State franchise laws may restrict competition.
However, my number one agitation with a dealerships is the difficulty of à la carte selection. I always get stuff I don’t need or want and sometimes do without features I would like. This is a similar grip I have with livestream cable television. Would it save me money, I don’t know. It has with my cable going with internet only television. Options and add-ons are good markups and à la carte and fewer showrooms may result in higher prices. Nothing is free.
I'm very interested in your thoughts.
Are you a car dealer?. Because other than a car dealer or their close family member no one - no one - can write so glowingly about the "benefits" of dealership.
No I’m 100% not affiliated with a dealer. But I did put a few business cases of what a corporate vision of a “no independent dealership” pre/post sales channel world look like. If you think today’s at-scale automotive experience is bad, just know it can get worse.
You’ll probably want to keep an eye on what happens to the Cadillac experience as GM erases independently owned Cadillac showrooms/service off the map and they go full EV.
I agree with the general premise that how people acquire, operate, service, and retire vehicles is antiquated and needs to eventually change. I think you'll see more and more automakers try to push the subscription model. Why is it "your Tesla" that you're driving? Tesla could easily just remove a broken vehicle and drop another clone of it on your driveway the moment you have a problem. And you're not owning a vehicle, you're simply paying them to access their fleet.
So instead of treating the car like some huge capital asset, a family is just gaining access to the benefit of the vehicle. Everything about price, reliability, maintenance, and repair changes into something that's more like your cell phone and data plan. But we're a few decades away from that; and the supply chain isn't ready to build a mega-inventory of automobiles like Apple's is able to do with lots of iPhones.
But looking at the old/current mass-market business model of automobiles, the general theme here are the main buckets of experience:
1) Research/evaluation... Lots of cool tech being advertised, faster (and cleaner!). Always something new with lots of aspirational marketing. People may complain about having to see ads, but by and large they actually like this step. Eventually the person gets excited enough that they're now ready to purchase something.
2) Negotiating at a dealership. It should be obvious to anyone who has bought a car from anyone other than Tesla... the act of agreeing on a transaction price for a a car SSSSUUUCCCKKKSSS. It is painful by design, and meant to extract maximum value from an excited car buyer at the time of purchase. Since people are buying cars only once every few years, this is the one bite at the apple that companies have to shake you down.
There aren't too many businesses that monetize pain. But the auto industry is one of them that figured it out. They can apply pressure at this step because they know the customer is excited to purchase a car and drive it home. The carrot of car ownership is dangled and now the customer can be whipped. The more pain they put to block someone from the good-feels, the more money they make. I agree with you 100%, this process sucks because of how much science has gone into maximizing pain for profit by the dealers. Tesla is taking full advantage of how painful this process is to set themselves apart from the norm.
Edit: If you want to skip the pain-train, just tell your salesperson you'll pay MSRP. But doing so will make the dealership a crap ton of extra profit. Just like why if you order a Tesla from their website, you make Elon a crap ton of money.
3) Taking delivery of the car. Aside from having to get pummeled in the aforementioned pain-gauntlet, automakers really beef up the actually delivery process. This is the rainbow at the end of the pain-train that someone just rode on for 5 hours. It better be damn good so people leave happy instead of pissed.
Reading the experiences people have here on TMC and hearing about Tesla from my neighbors, I think Tesla can improve this experience. Because Tesla basically removed pain from bucket 2 and shoved it into bucket 3. There are examples of people getting cars dropped off with a flat tire and Tesla just shrugging. I know many people on TMC don't care about paint defects, crooked doors, misaligned trim, and stinky AC. But to me, it's kind of alarming how Tesla wants the customer to find the problems then report on it for service. From where I came from, that's unacceptable to use the customer as QC. Yes it's cool that a car could just appear in someone's driveway. But the quality of the delivery is so sub-par compared to what you'd expect if you bought a cell phone or suit... let alone a $60,000 car.
4) Servicing a vehicle for wear. Naturally this is where Tesla shines and cars fueled by dead dinosaurs is going to severely lag. One won't need oil changes and transmission servicing if there is no ICE and no wacky 9 speed planetary whack-job transmission. I agree in premise, if there isn't anything to service, then why do we really need service shops?
5) Mechanical issues during the warranty. I think this is where maybe your individual experience is different than most average blokes. IIRC, from the research I saw a few years ago, most people really like the ease to get repairs at normal service centers. There wasn't much competitive advantage of any single normal automaker since they were all very good at this step. Dealerships provided loaners, had all the latest diagnostic tools, kept very clean service departments, and were usually well-stocked to repair issues. Evoking a lemon law is very rare.
While I agree Teslas have fewer parts which means fewer likely chance of repair... there are still failures for a busted air conditioner compressor, door that gets rattley, cracked window regulator, weak upper ball joint, or some NHTSA safety recall. Maybe Tesla will simply make the repairs remote and solve problems without a centralized service center. But my neighbors all have had pretty sour experiences so far with this service model to the extent they were telling me not to buy a Tesla. Plus, as we've seen time and time again on TMC, Tesla seems to be under-staffing their service folks with both Energy and Auto because of some reason I cannot really comprehend other than Elon doesn't like humans and favors machines.
Anyway, maybe Tesla will surprise me by doubling-down investment in buckets 3 and 5 to show how they can be an active role at the point people actually touch and interact with their products. To the extent they won't need local shops to give that higher touch. But for now, I think Tesla will continue to do the bare bones necessary to execute after-sales on both the Energy and Auto side.
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Thank you, what you say is highly plausible if not common practice. Your last paragraph introduces an important issue: How does a centralized conglomerate deliver responsive decentralized (i.e. local) after-sales service and support? Given a high level of demand for service what facilitates or will motivate responsiveness?
I can't find an example of a consumer large corporate that has figured it out - that's why I don't see Tesla pulling it off either because AI androids just don't seem ready to deal with the myriad issues individuals face.
I think Apple is the closest anyone has gotten... Apple owns the "Genius Bar service" at the corporate level. But we continue to see that apple more or less just replaces a busted phone, iPad, or Macbook than they really service anything. It's not a "right to repair" so much as a "privilege of getting another Apple thing". I don't know if the Apple model would scale up to the level/cost of an automobile or rooftop solar.
Residential kitchen appliance makers, household pools, HVAC, and other fixtures servicing is not owned by a conglomerate that I can find.
Small business restaurant equipment, small office equipment, etc basically need either dedicated on prem staff or B2B repair networks that involve maintenance agreements.
Cloud computing and software could be both what you've said (centralized conglomerate delivering to decentralized), but that's because data isn't tangible and can kind of exist "simultaneously" in many places.
For better or worse, this is kinda of standard practice for startups and Tesla still think it can get away with it. It's generally tolerable to me for software because I get more frequent updates from Tesla with new features in return. However, one area I find totally unacceptable is when it comes to life critical functions. I am baffled that Tesla is allowed to put out half baked Autopilot and FSD functions. It's a joke to call something "Autopilot" that requires the driver to have hands on wheel at all times. I wonder if Boeing could get away with doing the same for their planes.
Startups, meaning a newly established business? I don't buy it. I worked on critical systems so the norm was the opposite. If this seems to be standard practice then many may have gone out of business before you had the chance to know they existed. As far as FSD/AP goes what matters is the level of driving automation (0-5). Tesla is at level 2. It's no so much a joke, it may be misleading, it's more of a misnomer.
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