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Crunch! Falcon Wing Doors fail to sense obstacle

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2. I wonder about this. Is it that they felt so much pressure to deliver that they took short cuts on QA or made a conscious decision to have a lower QA standard knowing that they would fix issues later? Or did they just not understand how to properly QA what they built? Either way, it seems a bit odd.

The answer to this is long and nuanced. There is the complexity issue of both hardware and software and then the sheer amount of resource and capital it would take to thoroughly test something like this.

Software - If you've worked on any software product of sufficient complexity, you can have all the tests in the world but it's still difficult to think of all the corner cases and possible interactions. The best software companies out there release software with bugs all the time - you'd be surprised at how many issues show up in bug tracking systems. If you're a successful company, you can spend months doing QA, running automation + manually testing and your customers will walk the entire feature set in a day. Most companies have process to deal with auditing, hot fixes, critical bugs, etc. Even at the most diligent of companies, bugs get released into production. More than other car manufacturers, Tesla relies on software and probably has better software engineers and there are still this many problems. If you're a legacy manufacturer that doesn't know how to do software, you're either going to see the same or greater number of bugs or you won't be able to keep pace with the pace of software innovation in cars. If Apple can't release bug-free software, you can bet no car manufacturer can.

Hardware - Most legacy car companies are using the same mechanical systems (with the exception of the engine), derivative parts or systems that have had years of testing and refinement, and have a ton of experience with quality + manufacturing at scale. Anytime you introduce something new, there will be use cases and scenarios that weren't anticipated. Almost everything Tesla has done has been new and from the ground up where they had no idea how people were going to use it or what any of the unintended consequences would be. In fact, it's not at all unusual to see tons of issues anytime other car manufacturers try to do something new. The first year BMW introduced the 335i was a disaster - specifically excessive oil temperature and constant fuel pump issues. I know 3 or 4 people who bought that car and all of them had their fuel pump replace and were stranded at one point or another. One guy had to have it replaced twice, they also rebuilt his entire engine, his air conditioning stopped working, etc. That's without doing anything too new like FWD, brand new seats, giant windshield, auto presenting doors, etc. In fact, most new model introductions are incremental with mostly cosmetic refinements.

Cost - Testing hardware costs a f*ckton of money. You need to anticipate how people will use each system and build custom test fixtures to exercise and fatigue each part of the vehicle. This is imperfect because you can't simulate real world use perfectly. Imagine the cost to engineer and manufacture a test system for approaching the vehicle from different angles and having the doors auto present. Then you need to manufacture a significant sample size of vehicles that you're just going to junk to figure out where your manufacturing process has issues. In addition, you can spend all this money and the car looks great but over time a wire rubs against the body and creates a short - a problem that you would only find after a year of real-world driving.

It's an inexact science and a problem that's impossible to solve. It's a trade-off of cost vs quality and I think it would stress Ford and GM's resources to test something like this, not to mention a company with less resources and cash like Tesla. The car will never be perfect and problem free - just better and better over time. I'm convinced that the only way that a car like this gets built with quality is to have your customers walk find all the unknown unknowns for you and quickly addressing + fixing these issues over time. I'm also think Tesla agrees, which is why the Model 3 is going out to Tesla employees and reservations in CA first. It's inevitable that the early Model 3's will have issues and they want to keep those problems in the family.
 
1. I thought they fired that Hubris guy long ago.
2. I wonder about this. Is it that they felt so much pressure to deliver that they took short cuts on QA or made a conscious decision to have a lower QA standard knowing that they would fix issues later? Or did they just not understand how to properly QA what they built? Either way, it seems a bit odd.

1. The customers wanted those doors. Mr. Musk was specific about that when answering Adam Jonas' question on Model X delay. Mr Hubris rules the place, and can't be fired.
2. Well, Model S was "production constrained", So, they thought "Hey, why don't we start delivering the Model X right before the Q3 quarter end? That will relieve the production constraint. Also will help in vesting the stock options." In hindsight, it makes total sense.
They did do a lot of QA. Mr. Musk was very specific, that the 2 year delay in delivering Model X was for bringing a quality car to market, not those doors. If anything, those "sculptural pieces of work" in the second row might share partial blame.
 
1. The customers wanted those doors. Mr. Musk was specific about that when answering Adam Jonas' question on Model X delay. Mr Hubris rules the place, and can't be fired.
2. Well, Model S was "production constrained", So, they thought "Hey, why don't we start delivering the Model X right before the Q3 quarter end? That will relieve the production constraint. Also will help in vesting the stock options." In hindsight, it makes total sense.
They did do a lot of QA. Mr. Musk was very specific, that the 2 year delay in delivering Model X was for bringing a quality car to market, not those doors. If anything, those "sculptural pieces of work" in the second row might share partial blame.
I'm a firm believer that trying to develop, retool, test production, and build the Model X on the exact same assembly line while not effecting the Model S production was the delay. This was a major feat that they succeeded at. Not sure if anyone here has ever been involved with programming a robotic production line. But it's not exactly like sending a file off to the office printer.
 
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Ugh!
Ugly pic in the initial post of this thread.
We've had a couple of "whoops, stop it!" events with the FWDs. Both front doors also delight in just banging into things.
The really "what is going on?!" is the rear hatch -- it raises, apparently with no sensors and it doesn't even retract/lower the wing so it's just that much taller when it hits something overhead.
They'll get all this sorted and as I've said with each little hiccup, I wouldn't have voted to delay the car another day to fix whatever I just saw go wrong or whatever design blunder I just noticed (e.g. the groove below the rear hatch glass that catches mud/leaves like crazy or the dull paint finish on the wing because they're not priming the underlying surface to match the aluminum body texture, the whacky "go find it" of the UX, the harsh, jostling ride on typical Bay Area roads, the lack of things like 360 surround cameras or the dynamic headlights that are fixed position and turn on like an 80's Buick, etc.)
North of 2000 miles and zero real world issues, things like summon to park itself and come out into the driveway to be loaded without the hassle of even trying to get the doors to open in the garage ... as you live with it, it becomes comfortable ... even things like anticipating a passenger, parking, unlocking the doors, opening the passenger and curb-side FWD ... it all starts to "flow" and be unobtrusive ... still the damn door that opens into moving traffic ... that can get a little hairy ... nearly "lost" the passenger door while stopping facing downhill and the door just sprang into action (as the passenger pulled the lever expecting the usual six inches of opening and then wrestling with the door hinge motors to convince the door to open wide enough to get out) and surprise, it flung itself wide open ... aargh! : )
 
Better watch out, better not cry, better not pout, I tell you no lie.
Low clearance Supercharger in town! (Temecula, CA).

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Why purchase movie tickets for the nearby Edwards Theater? The real drama will occur when trying to drive through the maze of vertical stanchions at the end of each turn. The low beams are a hatch challenge as well. Unhitch the travel trailer before entering the east parking structure for a charge.

IMG_3434.JPG
 
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It seems logical to me to have these areas -- each area being programmed into the vehicle ... an elaborate "summon" routine.
I keep watching Autopilot make gross errors despite its display showing the "right" answer (e.g. "sweeping right turn" is visible on the GPS map and the depiction of the "perceived" road according to Autopilot) but the it decides "you know what, I think this is a sharp left and I'm going to rumble over cateyes and stray onto the wrong side of the road despite clearly visible oncoming traffic" ...)
Seems to me, there's a place for "artificial intelligence" driving and there's a place for "coded with real time updates" driving.
I very much doubt I've yet driven over even one square inch of road or path or parking that hasn't been traversed a dozen times by Tesla while developing Autopilot in the last so many years, but still, I get to very common stretch of road right near a Supercharger location and Autopilot makes a gross error. So I'm not surprised the doors need close attention. : )
 
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The really "what is going on?!" is the rear hatch -- it raises, apparently with no sensors and it doesn't even retract/lower the wing so it's just that much taller when it hits something overhead.
Apologies if you already know this but, check out page 12 of your owners manual. The rear trunk doesn't have sensors, you need to tell it how high it can open.

Sounds like they should add one on or just under the wing.
 
Apologies if you already know this but, check out page 12 of your owners manual. The rear trunk doesn't have sensors, you need to tell it how high it can open.

Sounds like they should add one on or just under the wing.

That would be a nice addition. The Model S liftgate cannot fully open in my garage; I have had it set to the highest possible height without hitting my garage door. That's pretty workable because the S is low, so the opening is pretty wide. Since the X is high, the highest possible opening in my garage is quite small. And in fact, it is even smaller because I have to account for the raised spoiler. Since the setting is persistent (not geolocation based, as has been requested before), that means my X liftgate has a limited opening no matter where I am. I have to push it the rest of the way when I'm out.
 
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(Tesla Motors should consider putting a "Low Clearance" warning on the touchscreen with the door opening buttons when the center sensor has recently encountered unacceptable ceiling heights or low beams.)

There is - this is a pic of my MX parked in the garage with the grey arc indicating an overhead obstructions (garage door opener and door rail) and my MS on the right. BTW, the FWD doors will both consistently open in this scenario without hitting either my other car, the garage door rail or the garage door opener.

IMG_0655.jpg
 
There is - this is a pic of my MX parked in the garage with the grey arc indicating an overhead obstructions (garage door opener and door rail) and my MS on the right. BTW, the FWD doors will both consistently open in this scenario without hitting either my other car, the garage door rail or the garage door opener.
I think @Mark Z meant recently encountered as in - you pass a beam and it remembers that within 5 feet, a beam was passed. The sensor image you show is a real-time image.

That said, that rooftop sensor could be used to stop the liftgate from opening too much. Obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be better than no sensor at all.
 
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That would be a nice addition. The Model S liftgate cannot fully open in my garage; I have had it set to the highest possible height without hitting my garage door. That's pretty workable because the S is low, so the opening is pretty wide. Since the X is high, the highest possible opening in my garage is quite small. And in fact, it is even smaller because I have to account for the raised spoiler. Since the setting is persistent (not geolocation based, as has been requested before), that means my X liftgate has a limited opening no matter where I am. I have to push it the rest of the way when I'm out.
Sounds like another solution that may help would be to make sure the spoiler is retracted anytime the car is in "Park". Or maybe when no one is sitting in the driver seat. That way you have an extra few inches of clearance.
 
I think @Mark Z meant recently encountered as in - you pass a beam and it remembers that within 5 feet, a beam was passed. The sensor image you show is a real-time image.

That said, that rooftop sensor could be used to stop the liftgate from opening too much. Obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be better than no sensor at all.


Ah, got it.

I think, if nothing else it give the driver a quick reminder to not blindly open the FWD without checking things out.

Regarding the rooftop sensor and the lift gate, it would be interesting to understand the resolution and granularity of the picture it paints. In my case, the tailgate is under the last couple of sections of the garage door that sit on the curved part of the rail when the garage door is open-- the clearance there is lower than the rails or the garage door opener. I would wonder if the sensor would be smart enough to pick that up and make that adjustment for the tailgate without unnecessarily restricting movement of the FWDs.

+1 I would also like to see the spoiler retract anytime the tailgate opens--it would give me a bit larger opening.
 
I think there's just miscommunication here. @fbitz777 was (I believe) asking if you could just open them manually - that is, "by hand". You can, but it's very difficult and requires the emergency release behind the speaker grille. They're not intended for hand opening. @aesculus means you can control the height of the opening/closing more granularly by using the lever on the B pillar. Start/stop/start/stop.. but it's still motorized. Just not "automatically" sensing the surroundings.
Ah. Not the first time I misunderstood a question. My wife says it happens multiple times a day.:)
 
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...just relax, and love what your driving!
May I suggest that in parking garages you don't take a relaxed attitude. The only solution to prevent busted Falcon Wing Doors, where limited height could cause damage, is to be vigilant and cautious.

(I also don't take a relaxed attitude using AP. Hands on the wheel has prevented the Model X from driving straight into low cement curbs on some curves.)
 
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The answer to this is long and nuanced. There is the complexity issue of both hardware and software and then the sheer amount of resource and capital it would take to thoroughly test something like this.

Software - If you've worked on any software product of sufficient complexity, you can have all the tests in the world but it's still difficult to think of all the corner cases and possible interactions. The best software companies out there release software with bugs all the time - you'd be surprised at how many issues show up in bug tracking systems. If you're a successful company, you can spend months doing QA, running automation + manually testing and your customers will walk the entire feature set in a day. Most companies have process to deal with auditing, hot fixes, critical bugs, etc. Even at the most diligent of companies, bugs get released into production. More than other car manufacturers, Tesla relies on software and probably has better software engineers and there are still this many problems. If you're a legacy manufacturer that doesn't know how to do software, you're either going to see the same or greater number of bugs or you won't be able to keep pace with the pace of software innovation in cars. If Apple can't release bug-free software, you can bet no car manufacturer can.

Hardware - Most legacy car companies are using the same mechanical systems (with the exception of the engine), derivative parts or systems that have had years of testing and refinement, and have a ton of experience with quality + manufacturing at scale. Anytime you introduce something new, there will be use cases and scenarios that weren't anticipated. Almost everything Tesla has done has been new and from the ground up where they had no idea how people were going to use it or what any of the unintended consequences would be. In fact, it's not at all unusual to see tons of issues anytime other car manufacturers try to do something new. The first year BMW introduced the 335i was a disaster - specifically excessive oil temperature and constant fuel pump issues. I know 3 or 4 people who bought that car and all of them had their fuel pump replace and were stranded at one point or another. One guy had to have it replaced twice, they also rebuilt his entire engine, his air conditioning stopped working, etc. That's without doing anything too new like FWD, brand new seats, giant windshield, auto presenting doors, etc. In fact, most new model introductions are incremental with mostly cosmetic refinements.

Cost - Testing hardware costs a f*ckton of money. You need to anticipate how people will use each system and build custom test fixtures to exercise and fatigue each part of the vehicle. This is imperfect because you can't simulate real world use perfectly. Imagine the cost to engineer and manufacture a test system for approaching the vehicle from different angles and having the doors auto present. Then you need to manufacture a significant sample size of vehicles that you're just going to junk to figure out where your manufacturing process has issues. In addition, you can spend all this money and the car looks great but over time a wire rubs against the body and creates a short - a problem that you would only find after a year of real-world driving.

It's an inexact science and a problem that's impossible to solve. It's a trade-off of cost vs quality and I think it would stress Ford and GM's resources to test something like this, not to mention a company with less resources and cash like Tesla. The car will never be perfect and problem free - just better and better over time. I'm convinced that the only way that a car like this gets built with quality is to have your customers walk find all the unknown unknowns for you and quickly addressing + fixing these issues over time. I'm also think Tesla agrees, which is why the Model 3 is going out to Tesla employees and reservations in CA first. It's inevitable that the early Model 3's will have issues and they want to keep those problems in the family.
Well written, thoughtful reply..
 
The first time we opened the lift gate in the garage, the spoiler hit the garage door and I got a yelling from everyone including the car. So I set the opening to lower and even though I am pretty short I bump my head into it. So I have now learnt to close the garage door before opening the lift gate.:confused:
 
The first time we opened the lift gate in the garage, the spoiler hit the garage door and I got a yelling from everyone including the car. So I set the opening to lower and even though I am pretty short I bump my head into it. So I have now learnt to close the garage door before opening the lift gate.:confused:
If they would allow (ensure?) the Model X to lock the spoiler down when the car was in Park we could regain these missing inches.:(