Don’t order SR or MR if your winter is cold.

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Actually, it has always needed a diesel heater option that would keep the battery and interior warm in very cold weather. Diesel is a lot easier to get on the road than propane. Even a 5 gallon tank would be enough to make a significant difference. Trucks, airplanes, and boats use them.

If for no other reason, it would save on CO2 emissions.

I'd prefer an alcohol heater, but that's a market that needs to become established.

 

[ba2002]

People that live in places where their energy graph doesn't show anything below 45 degrees are not allowed to participate in discussions about "cold" weather. It's still shorts and sandals weather where you are ...

Agree, 45 degrees is spring.

 

[thefortunes]

Bottom line (as many of us have TRIED to state showing data but been drowned out by FUD)...

The ONLY time you MAY see 50% loss is if you are doing very short drives AND ADDING IN VAMPIRE LOSSES.

You DO NOT NEED range for short drives, so losses on short drives are irrelevant when discussing whether an SR or MR is ok for the winter. When you road trip, your losses will be more in the 10-30% range (as demonstrated by my and others' DATA).

If the intent of the thread is to discuss the additional COST of driving an EV in the winter due to efficiency and vampire losses, then I would agree it will be higher. In my case I still save $ over driving an equivalent ICE, but the savings are less in the winter as my Wh/mi rise.

In well over 100k miles of EV driving I have NEVER taken an ICE due to range concerns brought on by weather...and I live in Wisconsin!

 

[ConcordeSST]

I don't think any recommendation of SR, MR, or LR can be complete without discussing with the interested buyer what type of driving they expect to do, in what temperatures, and how closely they plan to micromanage heat, charging, regen braking modes, etc. So, you can't categorically tell someone in a cold climate that they shouldn't get the SR or the MR, but you can warn them that if they plan to take a lot of short trips, in very cold weather or deep snow, with the heat at comfortable levels, preheating on battery power, spirited acceleration, grippy winter tires mounted, dual motor, and a lot of time spent either in traffic or stopped at lights (where the heater continues to run), it is possible they may see horrible efficiency. Will it be 50%? I'm not sure. In Minnesota, driving exactly the way I just described, my energy graph is suggesting around a 50% range loss....if I keep driving this way. However, if I were in a situation where I needed longer range, I very likely wouldn't be driving this way, I'd be driving more highway miles and that energy graph would change accordingly.

So in summary, the situations where efficiency will be at its worst (city driving), are the exact situations where many people (not all, but many) won't need the range to begin with.

 

[Nate977p]

Bottom line (as many of us have TRIED to state showing data but been drowned out by FUD)...

The ONLY time you MAY see 50% loss is if you are doing very short drives AND ADDING IN VAMPIRE LOSSES.

You DO NOT NEED range for short drives, so losses on short drives are irrelevant when discussing whether an SR or MR is ok for the winter. When you road trip, your losses will be more in the 10-30% range (as demonstrated by my and others' DATA).

If the intent of the thread is to discuss the additional COST of driving an EV in the winter due to efficiency and vampire losses, then I would agree it will be higher. In my case I still save $ over driving an equivalent ICE, but the savings are less in the winter as my Wh/mi rise.

In well over 100k miles of EV driving I have NEVER taken an ICE due to range concerns brought on by weather...and I live in Wisconsin!

I don't mean to pester and have appreciated the discourse on this thread. I would agree with the majority of the data and other people's graphs look a ton better than mine, but my data is showing a clear 35% loss at 30-40° and following trend, will dip to 40-50° in the 20s and teens. Maybe that is not true of everyone, but what am I missing her? My data (albeit not complete, but the trends are constant and 3.5k data is not useless).

 

[acoste]

Bottom line (as many of us have TRIED to state showing data but been drowned out by FUD)...

The ONLY time you MAY see 50% loss is if you are doing very short drives AND ADDING IN VAMPIRE LOSSES.

Again. Vampire losses on the battery are minimal in cold weather. The total charge in the battery is almost the same in the morning compared to the last evening unless the car was kept awake.
It is the higher current when driving due to heating up the battery and the cabin that causes charge losses. Plus the decreased usable capacity as long as the battery is cold which causes higher charge loss in the first couple of minutes of driving. The mileage calculator includes this in the calculations, and displays a lower range in the morning.

 

[thefortunes]

I don't mean to pester and have appreciated the discourse on this thread. I would agree with the majority of the data and other people's graphs look a ton better than mine, but my data is showing a clear 35% loss at 30-40° and following trend, will dip to 40-50° in the 20s and teens. Maybe that is not true of everyone, but what am I missing her? My data (albeit not complete, but the trends are constant and 3.5k data is not useless).

You are mixing an efficiency loss due to weather (and whatever other factors were present during those drives) of 30% at 30-40F and your inherent driving losses of 10% (your max efficiency is only 90%, not 100%).

 

[SageBrush]

So in summary, the situations where efficiency will be at its worst (city driving), are the exact situations where many people (not all, but many) won't need the range to begin with.

Bingo.

The simple point that OP missed is that consumption rates for short trips do not extend out to long trips.

 

[mrwuffles]

I'm sure any range loss might be a shock to recent EV converts, but maybe some perspective is in order.

We do have the LR becase we haven't driven gas since 2013, but even the SR would be much-improved compared to our Leafs. In our Leafs, 80 mi of range would become 40-50 at 30*. One time, with heavy snow and a 30 min commute turned into a 5 hour drive home (I'm in NC), we got only 25 mi out of 80.

Whereas the 3 goes from 190 down to ~159 for a 21 mi drive on a warm day (I have a lead foot); it goes from 190 down to 155 on 30* day. So 31 mi warm vs 35 mi for a cold day. This is 80 mph most of the way.

I've found our Model 3, even with 19" rims and AWD, much more highway driving to be more efficient in percent loss, than our Leafs, despite the latter having 16/17" rims, and with avoiding anything over 55 mph.

That said, the one thing I really miss about the Leafs is a heated steering wheel. It doesn't matter as much with the Model 3, but with the Leafs, I could get down to 30* without using much heat. With the 3, I have to put heat on a lot more, as my hands get cold first. Sometimes I'll sit on my hands! It's bad enough that I'm thinking of getting heated gloves.

 

[SageBrush]

It's bad enough that I'm thinking of getting heated gloves.

Why is that bad ?

I'm happy with a good pair of unheated gloves but heated would be the next obvious step.

 

[mrwuffles]

Why is that bad ?

I'm happy with a good pair of unheated gloves but heated would be the next obvious step.

Personal issue. I hate wearing gloves, and I use Waze to spot for cops and search for better routes. The gloves with conduction don't work that well IME.

 

[Runt8]

Again. Vampire losses on the battery are minimal in cold weather. The total charge in the battery is almost the same in the morning compared to the last evening unless the car was kept awake.
It is the higher current when driving due to heating up the battery and the cabin that causes charge losses. Plus the decreased usable capacity as long as the battery is cold which causes higher charge loss in the first couple of minutes of driving. The mileage calculator includes this in the calculations, and displays a lower range in the morning.

I think they might be using a different definition of "vampire losses" - any use of energy not going towards propelling the car (ie, running the heat when it's cold).

 

[SageBrush]

Personal issue. I hate wearing gloves, and I use Waze to spot for cops and search for better routes. The gloves with conduction don't work that well IME.

Try gloves with exposed fingertips. The important detail is to not grip the cold wheel with bare skin. The gloves I have for bicycling in cold weather work very well.

 

[acoste]

I think they might be using a different definition of "vampire losses" - any use of energy not going towards propelling the car (ie, running the heat when it's cold).

Yeah, he may been using it that way.

By definition vampire loss is the electric power that is consumed by electronic and electrical appliances while they are switched off.

 

[thefortunes]

You are mixing an efficiency loss due to weather (and whatever other factors were present during those drives) of 30% at 30-40F and your inherent driving losses of 10% (your max efficiency is only 90%, not 100%).

@acoste What could you possibly disagree with here? HIS POSTED STATS show a maximum efficiency of 89.8%. Sheesh.

 

[acoste]

@acoste What could you possibly disagree with here? HIS POSTED STATS show a maximum efficiency of 89.8%. Sheesh.

I removed my rating. I agree with you there. Misread it first, sorry. He has low efficiency in general.

 

[mswlogo]

Why are you saying 30% is nuts? My driving data says 35% to 37% at 30°. And that is warm for up here during winter.

I agree the 20/80 is for daily, I was just more so making a point on that for how most mass market people will not know. If we expand to 5/90 it cuts charges down to about 2.

And what do you mean by this: 60% off someone in SC is ridiculous.

But my main point I was illustrating was for the mass market. The daily usable in the winter for people in colder areas is about 85-100 miles on the MR. That will be a shock to the mass market I think. Maybe I am wrong. I am not arguing people into EVs know this, but we are now in mass market territory and people buying cars rated at 240 miles, but real world in winter getting 100 following proper charging will cause rumblings.

Because you said (or extrapolated something about 60%).

Now if your garage is really 60 F and you've already lost 30% something seems off.

 

[mswlogo]

You aren't familiar with where the name you gave your Tesla shows up?


Because Tesla doesn't account for altitude changes when evaluating TPMS data.



The car sat in a cold garage for 48 hours, and sat in bumper to bumper traffic for 30-40 minutes with the heater going.



#3 is the only one that will account for vampire drain and the impact of the car heater consuming lots of watts when the car hasn't been driven very far.

Because most of my charging is done at my work, it really isn't possible to get exact measurements.... I'm just pointing out for the purposes of this thread that for short distance trips in cold weather you can in fact see 40%+ range reduction.

We agree #3 covers everything.

But #2 can cover vampire drain too. It's all a matter of when you collect your data points.
Get home from work (don't charge). Note miles left on battery and odometer. Next day you get home subtract miles left on battery and compare to actual miles driven.

You always measure round trip too. Not one way.

 

[mswlogo]

Bottom line (as many of us have TRIED to state showing data but been drowned out by FUD)...

The ONLY time you MAY see 50% loss is if you are doing very short drives AND ADDING IN VAMPIRE LOSSES.

You DO NOT NEED range for short drives, so losses on short drives are irrelevant when discussing whether an SR or MR is ok for the winter. When you road trip, your losses will be more in the 10-30% range (as demonstrated by my and others' DATA).

If the intent of the thread is to discuss the additional COST of driving an EV in the winter due to efficiency and vampire losses, then I would agree it will be higher. In my case I still save $ over driving an equivalent ICE, but the savings are less in the winter as my Wh/mi rise.

In well over 100k miles of EV driving I have NEVER taken an ICE due to range concerns brought on by weather...and I live in Wisconsin!

Great post. Mostly two separate issues of efficiency (daily) vs range (yes, they do overlap). But yeah, range (in cold weather) was the real topic here.

And to say what you said another way, folks are extrapolating the worst case conditions (short cold soaked daily drives) onto the ideal conditions (long trips where battery can be topped off and preheated for maximum range even in less than ideal temperatures).

I always like to use Camera's as an analogy. I used to buy expensive Canon Camera's and folks used to "Pixel Peep" all the time and complain how crappy it was. But folks that learned and worked with the limits of the camera (any camera) took jaw dropping images.

EV is not the same as ICE. You've learned how to work WITH ICE your whole life. You need to handle EV differently. If we started with EV and moved towards ICE we'd be saying but the acceleration stinks and it smells so bad.

EV's are not perfect. But they are a pretty nice set of compromises, compared to the comprises you made on ICE.

If the 240 mile round trip is a concern and gives range anxiety then by all means get the long range.

The title of this thread is absolutely wrong. It depends on your needs. For some people LR might not be appropriate even in warm weather.

 

[StellarRat]

Having own an original 2011 Leaf for six years I think I can say that even an SR will be sufficient for 99% of the population no matter how cold it is.