diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Of course, expert opinions count for more. I am not saying that my opinion is better than theirs.
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Elon: "Feature complete for full self driving this year"
- Thread starter dckiwi
- Start date
Of course, expert opinions count for more. I am not saying that my opinion is better than theirs.
People keep repeating the talking point about some features shifting from EAP to FSD but it’s totally ridiculous.
AP+FSD still requires the exact same functionality to be complete as EAP+FSD.
Tesla just offers an “Autopilot” package that is less expensive than the former "Enhanced Autopilot" by switching some functionality that was formerly EAP to the FSD package.
EAP+FSD was features A, B, C, D, E and F plus autonomy with A, B, C, and D part of EAP and E and F plus autonomy part of FSD.
AP+FSD is still the exact same package but you pay less for AP and only get A and B with C, D, E, F and autonomy part of FSD.
On the Ark interview Elon predicted drivers could fall asleep in the car around the end of 2020. I doubt we’ll get there that fast but Tesla has not changed its goals one iota with the new repackaging of AP and FSD.
As others have mentioned, Tesla has just made it more affordable for people to get just TACC and Autosteer while requiring an upgrade for more features.
As too often happens in the Tesla world and TMC, much ado about nothing.
AP+FSD still requires the exact same functionality to be complete as EAP+FSD.
Tesla just offers an “Autopilot” package that is less expensive than the former "Enhanced Autopilot" by switching some functionality that was formerly EAP to the FSD package.
EAP+FSD was features A, B, C, D, E and F plus autonomy with A, B, C, and D part of EAP and E and F plus autonomy part of FSD.
AP+FSD is still the exact same package but you pay less for AP and only get A and B with C, D, E, F and autonomy part of FSD.
On the Ark interview Elon predicted drivers could fall asleep in the car around the end of 2020. I doubt we’ll get there that fast but Tesla has not changed its goals one iota with the new repackaging of AP and FSD.
As others have mentioned, Tesla has just made it more affordable for people to get just TACC and Autosteer while requiring an upgrade for more features.
As too often happens in the Tesla world and TMC, much ado about nothing.
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It's becoming increasingly clear "FSD" will need to be a hands-on experience, and the watering down of the FSD definition is an early indicator.
The "regulators made me do it" argument will wear very thin as competitors in the space won't require hands-on (indeed, there are places where they don't - but it is limited to controlled environments like Phoenix).
The "regulators made me do it" argument will wear very thin as competitors in the space won't require hands-on (indeed, there are places where they don't - but it is limited to controlled environments like Phoenix).
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Let me try to explain the AP/FSD changes on the website:
Previously, EAP had some AP building blocks and some FSD building blocks mixed in. Tesla simply rearranged the buildings blocks for AP and FSD into their proper boxes. All the AP building blocks in the AP box and all the FSD building blocks in the FSD box.
Auto Steer and TACC are building blocks for AP.
NOA, Summon, Auto Park, Traffic light/stop signs, and "automatic city driving" are the building blocks for FSD.
Previously, EAP had some AP building blocks and some FSD building blocks mixed in. Tesla simply rearranged the buildings blocks for AP and FSD into their proper boxes. All the AP building blocks in the AP box and all the FSD building blocks in the FSD box.
Auto Steer and TACC are building blocks for AP.
NOA, Summon, Auto Park, Traffic light/stop signs, and "automatic city driving" are the building blocks for FSD.
Nice try, but you are re-writing history in the context of Tesla's change.
FSD had no "building blocks." It was an upgrade promise (replete with fanciful narratives not implied but explicit) - which many of us bought into - and it meant something. That just changed and you're too blind to see it.
The definition of "Full Self Driving" is different today than it was just a few weeks ago, which has evolved from what it was 6 months ago. This primarily started when it was removed as an option from the website, and has been replaced by a podcast narrative and tweets. That's a stark difference from before.
That's certainly true. So where's the FSD demo? Tesla hasn't been a company to hold back its early development, in order to drum up hype.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
That's because Tesla has changed how they describe the packages, yes. You are absolutely right that before, Tesla did not describe FSD in terms of buildings blocks. Before, Tesla described FSD in terms of what the end product would be like. Now, Tesla is describing FSD in terms of what specific features you get now and in the near future. Basically, when FSD was still a long ways off, Tesla described it in more general terms of what they aim to achieve. Now that we are closer, they can give us more details of exactly what we will get now and in the near future.
Nice summary. The logic and facts are unimpeccable, but logic and facts seem to be out the window, unfortunately.
On a more interesting note, the signs seem positive that Tesla will be rolling out HW3 soon. Andrei Karpathy and Pete Bannon seemed very excited by its performance and potential to improve Tesla's autonomy. Elon has said stop lights and stop signs are working well in development mode in his car, and turns in complex urban environments are also in use although not as far along yet. Looking forward to seeing how this all plays out over the next year or two!
Oh, people already fall asleep.
Elon explicitly says that on the pod cast, so it should be very clear.
So is your fear is that all development/ free updates will stop?
Oh, don't criticize them for getting better at expressing realistic goals. They'll give the demo once the system is ready for release to the public, or close to it...
FSD used to have no features in the package. They have added the features that they consider FSD now to the package.... that’s why everyone is concerned. We can now see the future of what they consider FSD.
Which features did you not expect FSD to do previously? Stop at stop signs? Stop at red lights? Advanced summon? Navigate on Autopilot? Autopark? Automatically drive on city streets?
All of those were components of FSD previously, you just paid more for the EAP package than the new AP package so it included more functionality. Before and after they changed which features were bundled into EAP v. AP, FSD functionality still included them.
That looks like a list of exactly what I would expect FSD to do. So what's the big deal?
This is all so absurd to me. If Keurig advertises that their machine will make coffee, why the hell would anyone assume it’ll also one day clean your kitchen for you? What is written on the tin is what you can reasonably expect to be delivered when you purchase a product.
Tesla once promised the world, and now promises a couple features. If Tesla doesn’t deliver functionality beyond those couple features and someone decides to sue Tesla for fraud because of that, Tesla gets to stand in court and tell you that they never promised them so you’re SOL. “You get what you pay for”, as they say.
At this point, I fully expect to see an “Enhanced Full Self Driving” package down the road.
Tesla once promised the world, and now promises a couple features. If Tesla doesn’t deliver functionality beyond those couple features and someone decides to sue Tesla for fraud because of that, Tesla gets to stand in court and tell you that they never promised them so you’re SOL. “You get what you pay for”, as they say.
At this point, I fully expect to see an “Enhanced Full Self Driving” package down the road.
They have moved some EAP functions to FSD and rebranded EAP as just AP. They are also adding more features this year, that does not mean the enumerated values are all that there will ever be.
I'm at a loss to see what use case they don't have covered: Parking lots, city streets, and highways are all listed. Other than monitoring/ nag free, what is missing?
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Sure, I believe.
I bought a Tesla in large part because I believe in Tesla's overall mission statement (and I love their cars too). And I purchased FSD recently because at that price and based on the evidence, I do believe that Tesla can deliver the features they promise on their website. I would not have paid Tesla $2000 if I didn't believe that they could deliver those features. But I am realistic. I know the FSD I get on AP3 probably won't be L4 and I am ok with that.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but those who bought FSD really should have known the risk they were taking.
Elon/Tesla promised something that NO ONE had ever achieved before. So what made it believable? Has there been anything pulled from FSD that was actually believable?
When something has never been achieved there is the need for to take different approaches to crack it.
My biggest frustration with FSD is that Elon/Tesla weren't honest in how they sold it, and I don't believe they took a serious crack at it. Only time will tell, but so far it's been a bit of a let down.
It's important to point out that we're not the only ones upset at the lack of progress.
Audi A8 owners in Germany were promised L3 driving, but they still don't have it. Plus it's so massively limited, and the Audi people are so cagey about it that no one really knows how well it even performs. Audi will blame regulators in Germany for not being faster, but so far it looks like the label "First production L3 vehicle" was a bit premature.
Then we have Waymo which still has safety drivers.
Consumers like ourselves have to stop thinking of FSD as a deliverable. Tesla can't make any promises with it because there isn't a regulatory pathway to features beyond L2. So Tesla is taking an approach of seeing how much they can add to L2 until the regulators crack down. Even with summons there was a regulatory concern of some kind, but Elon never answered the question of which agency.
Elon/Tesla promised something that NO ONE had ever achieved before. So what made it believable? Has there been anything pulled from FSD that was actually believable?
When something has never been achieved there is the need for to take different approaches to crack it.
My biggest frustration with FSD is that Elon/Tesla weren't honest in how they sold it, and I don't believe they took a serious crack at it. Only time will tell, but so far it's been a bit of a let down.
It's important to point out that we're not the only ones upset at the lack of progress.
Audi A8 owners in Germany were promised L3 driving, but they still don't have it. Plus it's so massively limited, and the Audi people are so cagey about it that no one really knows how well it even performs. Audi will blame regulators in Germany for not being faster, but so far it looks like the label "First production L3 vehicle" was a bit premature.
Then we have Waymo which still has safety drivers.
Consumers like ourselves have to stop thinking of FSD as a deliverable. Tesla can't make any promises with it because there isn't a regulatory pathway to features beyond L2. So Tesla is taking an approach of seeing how much they can add to L2 until the regulators crack down. Even with summons there was a regulatory concern of some kind, but Elon never answered the question of which agency.
Revisionist history.
FSD buyers bought eight active cameras (vs. EAPs four).
Then Tesla gave them away for free.
FSD buyers bought FSD differentiating features in 3-6 months (April-July 2017).
Never happened.
These were not pipedreams.
And no, getting Tesla Network details in 2017 was not a pipedream either. Getting info. Why not tell us the status? It was promised — no, it was sold — on Design Studio after all.
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Huge difference to Tesla: Audi never pre-sold this feature. Audi A8 does not even have the physical AI button until the feature ships, so they are not pre-promising at all. They are not selling anything other than they are shipping.
So you're saying a 2019 Audi A8 in Germany can't be upgraded (by SW) to add L3 capability, and no buyers of that vehicle have any expectation that the feature will come to their cars?
I'm asking because I don't know. We haven't gotten much information on it.
If I could edit my post I'd re-write it to change it from owners to perspective buyers.
So you're saying a 2019 Audi A8 in Germany can't be upgraded (by SW) to add L3 capability, and no buyers of that vehicle have any expectation that the feature will come to their cars?
I'm asking because I don't know. We haven't gotten much information on it.
If I could edit my post I'd re-write it to change it from owners to perspective buyers.
No. The pricelist and catalogue are very clear. They are selling Level 2 aids. There is none of the Traffic-jam Pilot interior hardware. (Lidar is in the car for the Level 2 features.)
Revisionist history?
I've hated FSD ever since it was released since Tesla was selling snake oil.
I labeled it the 2nd biggest con job of the decade.
What I was getting at with my post is pretty much everyone in the autonomous driving game has come up short.
Okay, so Tesla a bit more than others since they promised the Super Bowl and never came out of the locker room.
The four versus eight cameras is great example of how little thought they put into it. Tesla has always sold all the safety features as standard. So how can Tesla have only 4 cameras versus eight activated? It made ZERO sense at the time, and no one paid much attention.
The FSD features differentiating in 3-6 months was a funny one as well as FSD had no features listed. We didn't know what Elon even meant. It then became a joke because of the 3-6 months definitely, maybe thing.
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