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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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I'm thinking a wealthy investor or institution could start accumulating shares in Tesla and immediately lend them out to short sellers, thus earning interest as well as keeping the share price depressed during the accumulation (for every purchase there would be a sale). This would increase the number of shares held short and thus give a better base to the share price as well as increasing the odds of a short squeeze. If all else remains equal this condition would persist (along with the interest payments) until shorts began to buy back shares, but while you would lose the interest payments the buying would support the stock price.

I'm thinking in 5 or 10 years it would be a nice feather in the cap of any fund to say they've held TSLA since 2016 (even if the amount isn't huge). In addition to the above benefits due to the unique situation of being fully shorted, the risk is limited by the likelihood of a buyout if any real problems came about. Elon has said he'd sell the company if that became the most likely path to mass producing EVs.

For the past couple of weeks, TSLA short sellers have been supply constrained (there weren't enough shares to satisfy demand). Today we switched to demand constrained for short shares (sufficient shares available but not enough shorts willing to open new positions). IB was reported to have 150,000 shares to short available this morning and 195,000 shares available later in the morning. Thus, the introduction of new shares to short would make little difference (other than knocking down the interest rate) as long as shorting looks unattractive, such as right now. Only if things went badly for TSLA or the stock price rose quite a bit without justification would you see an immediate jump up in demand for shares to short.

At present, the current demand for shares to short is coming from either the "'til bankruptcy do us part" types or by smarter shorts who are trying to manipulate the SP so that they can exit at a better price prior to Friday afternoon.
 
I feel the gains will come this week, before the deliveries announcement. Buy the rumor, sell the news. I feel by Friday afternoon good deliveries numbers will be fully priced in and Monday will only bring confirmation or disappointment.

I completely disagree. Tesla has missed on deliveries the last three quarters. Many investors simply do not believe that Tesla will beat. So time to show some steak. If Tesla were to suddenly run to $230 before the numbers were released I would think there could be a selloff. But anything under $220 prior to the announcement and I think we have at least a 5% pop if total deliveries is 24K or higher.
 
Ev sales was 17% of total car sales in Norway in 2015. Do anyone think it will take US 20 years more to reach 12%?
Really?

Well, if the US adopts similar incentives of 50% discounts vs. alternatives and other benefits, maybe it can do it in 15 years, because the cars still are expensive and out of reach of many people.

"Electric cars are exempt from value added tax (VAT) and purchase tax, which on average in Norway add 50% to the cost of a vehicle. They are also exempt from road tolls, tunnel-use charges, and ferry charges. And they get free parking, free charging, and the freedom to use bus lanes."
 
Welcome to my ignore list. You're in the esteemed company of some of the greatest trolls on the internet.
I'm not a troll... i am decidedly short TSLA... I am aware that this board is primarily of the alternate opinion... but I joined this board recently for that reason. I do not want to only hear the short thesis and banter that I hear on other boards... i'd rather engage in discussion with alternate opinions such as yourself. I attempt to keep my opinions civil... hopefully it comes across this way... I would hope that the rest on this board would appreciate alternate opinions on this stock as well.
 
I'm not a troll... i am decidedly short TSLA... I am aware that this board is primarily of the alternate opinion... but I joined this board recently for that reason. I do not want to only hear the short thesis and banter that I hear on other boards... i'd rather engage in discussion with alternate opinions such as yourself. I attempt to keep my opinions civil... hopefully it comes across this way... I would hope that the rest on this board would appreciate alternate opinions on this stock as well.
Where do you see oil? Why aren't you shorting oil?
 
I'm not a troll... i am decidedly short TSLA... I am aware that this board is primarily of the alternate opinion... but I joined this board recently for that reason. I do not want to only hear the short thesis and banter that I hear on other boards... i'd rather engage in discussion with alternate opinions such as yourself. I attempt to keep my opinions civil... hopefully it comes across this way... I would hope that the rest on this board would appreciate alternate opinions on this stock as well.
I, for one, appreciate your civility. However, you won't get unanimous civility here, because there is an opinion that anything but the rosiest of predictions causes SP to weaken, even if it is simply to weaken, in the slightest amount, the resolve of bulls, and there is some truth to that, and therefore, they fight off anybody who may have a differing opinion. My attitude is that medium to long term, if the SP can stand up to some healthy scrutiny, then it won't be as risky, and the fundamentals with respect to the success of the company will be stronger. Of course, I'm crazy, because everyone says "fundamentals are dead". So, there you have it.
 
what are the ancillary effects of converting all ICE vehicles to EV?... where's the research on this question?... are we just assuming it's all positive?... or have we done scientific research to prove so?
This hasn't been as widely publicized as it could have been, but it has been pretty well stated by EM and Tesla and well known to the members of this board within the last year that Tesla sees its EV's as powered by the sun and other clean energy in the future, primarily, and that right now we are in a transition into that during which a myriad of ways will be used to power the world, and EV's will get their power from a myriad of places during this transition, which will steadily transition to clean energy. There has been a lot of transitioning of the power for our world away from dirty fuels and into clean fuels; that is well underway, and you can see a great proportion of today's Tesla EV's are actually already sun and clean energy powered (because a lot of the newer clean energy installations are being connected in the same grids and/or homes of people who get EV's). Tesla is attempting to do a huge part of the future of that with solar roofs and integrated sun to rubber products that go all the way from solar panels to cars (with the SCTY merger and new integrated products including Tesla Energy aka 1/2 of GF1 output), both providing and profiting off of that goal, and selling a single simple product lineup to do so to its customers, in its Tesla network of stores and online.

2006-08-02 The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me)
2014-06-17 Here’s Why SolarCity Plans to Build a 1GW Solar Factory
2015-05-01 Tesla Energy | Tesla
2016-04-01 Model 3 | Tesla
2016-06-21 Tesla Makes Offer to Acquire SolarCity
2016-07-20 Master Plan, Part Deux
2016-08-01 Tesla and SolarCity to Combine
2016-08-01 Tesla/SolarCity: First look at new Silevo solar panel that Musk has been boasting about for its aesthetic features
2016-08-09 Elon Musk announces ‘Solar Roof’ product, Tesla/SolarCity will go after the roof industry
2016-09-26 http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2016/09/tesla-plans-to-unveil-solar-roof-with-storage-charger.html
2016-09-15 Addressing Peak Energy Demand with the Tesla Powerpack
 
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This hasn't been as widely publicized as it could have been, but it has been pretty well stated by EM and Tesla and well known to the members of this board within the last year that Tesla sees its EV's as powered by the sun and other clean energy in the future, primarily, and that right now we are in a transition into that during which a myriad of ways will be used to power the world, and EV's will get their power from a myriad of places. There has been a lot of transitioning of the power for our world away from dirty fuels and into clean fuels; that is well underway, and you can see a great proportion of today's Tesla EV's are actually already sun and clean energy powered (because a lot of the newer clean energy installations are being done in the same areas and/or homes of people who get EV's). Tesla is attempting to do a huge part of the future of that with solar roofs and integrated sun to rubber products that go all the way from solar panels to cars (with the SCTY merger and new integrated products including Tesla Energy aka 1/2 of GF1 output), both providing and profiting off of that goal, and selling a single simple product lineup to do so to its customers.

The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me)
Model 3 | Tesla
Tesla Energy | Tesla
Tesla Makes Offer to Acquire SolarCity
Master Plan, Part Deux
Tesla and SolarCity to Combine
Addressing Peak Energy Demand with the Tesla Powerpack
thanks for the references... i would question this statement: "that is well underway, and you can see a great proportion of today's Tesla EV's are actually already sun and clean energy powered"... as simply what makes "a great proportion?"

but I will let it go as this thread has a finer focus on the stock.
 
Columbus' Voyage had MASSIVE repercussions for every person on the planet save for people belonging to primitive tribes outside the Americas. It is a very accurate analogy.

Every scientist who pushed the edges of knowledge has profound ramifications on society.

Who are you or who is any government to decided where a company or an individual may go or what knowledge they may pursue.
The general public most certainly has the right to restrict what companies and individuals do.

If we'd stopped Al Sloan and Kettering from pushing tetraethyl lead in gasoline, we would have stopped some of the worst horrors this world has ever known.

I certainly hope Elon Musk understands that he doesn't have the right to unilaterally go nuke Mars to "improve the climate" (something he suggested when asked about outrageous ideas which might be good ideas). I would expect him to get permission from the UN.
 
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Where do you see oil? Why aren't you shorting oil?
interesting question... i see oil dropping short term and may continue to have incredibly dramatic fluctuations into the mid 30s... but I think the reasonable range for oil at this time is right where it's at... in the $40 to $45 range... based on shale extraction technologies improving due to decreasing value... what I mean by this is... there's oil in the ground... and they can get it... but it costs them X... and if oil is trading for X-$5... then eventually they will find a way to shave off $5... and start up operations again... so my opinion is... it's trading within a reasonable range today.

I think TSLA is affected by oil prices... because macro market stuff... but also because the idea that TSLA is the opposite of oil... and then on top of that... related to posts I exchanged last week... I do not believe TE is a substantial factor in any short to medium term valuation of TSLA like others here and find it extremely speculative. Beyond this I can't find a justification of TSLA's current valuation based on Auto relative to competitors other than investor enthusiasm. When investor enthusiasm is a significant factor while also having a high risk of execution, this puts TSLA (in my opinion) in a bubble category...

so... i'm not short oil because I see it within a reasonable market value... whereas I see Tesla as substantially outside its marketable value.
 
Cayenne MSRP starts at $59.9k
Panamera MSRP starts at $78.1k

Model S starts at $66k
Model X starts at $74k


Porsche charges an $8k premium for the sedan while Tesla charges an $8k premium for the CUV.

This was my thought too. Model X is a bit expensive for the segment, most premium SUVs are less expensive than premium sedans.

And based on numbers you provided, Porsche charges $18K (not $8K) premium for a sedan, while Tesla charges $8K premium for SUV, so difference is even more dramatic.
 
One neat feature of the BMW i3 is the carbon fiber body.

BMW Versus Tesla - Two Different Approaches To EVs
BMW also wanted this car to represent a departure from traditional manufacturing processes with an emphasis on sustainability. They set out to make the most efficient production car available today and they achieved that goal. The extensive use of carbon fiber reinforced plastic and aluminum allowed BMW to shave 400 to 500 lbs off the car which played a primary role in its efficiency.

This ease of repair and lower cost of construction is important for BMW, which says that everything BMW has learned from the i3 will eventually find its way onto the maker's regular vehicles. "There is a plan to bring CFRP to the rest of our fleet," communications manager Manuel Sattig told Autoblog Green.

As you'd imagine, expanding the material to the rest of the range means repair costs can't simply spiral out of control on every CFRP vehicle.

That's where the clever engineering starts.

The i3's exterior panels are mostly plastic. They're also attached by a simple system, allowing them to be swapped for another panel with very little work. It's the same reason cars these days have plastic bumpers and some cars even feature plastic front fenders.

Not everyone is lucky enough to get away with just a small accident, though. Larger ones will likely damage the CFRP itself, which is where another useful feature comes in.

Instead of deforming, like steel or aluminum, CFRP simply breaks. In doing so it absorbs energy just as metal would, but that energy isn't transferred to other parts of the chassis. Damaged CFRP components--there are 30-35 on the car--can be cut out and new ones bonded in. It's a quicker process, and this reduction in labor time contributes to the lower cost.

As a result, both the NHTSA and its counterparts in Europe have granted the i3 a low insurance rating--happy that even large repairs will cost much less than you'd imagine.

Carbon fiber itself isn't cheap. But if used well, there appears to be little reason it can't be cheaper to repair than the car sitting on your driveway.

Lighter, stronger and less expensive to repair. I'd been hoping that Tesla would trade BMW Tesla battery technology for BMW's carbon fiber technology. Now I'm hoping that Tesla will grab carbon fiber technology from SpaceX.
 
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thanks for the references... i would question this statement: "that is well underway, and you can see a great proportion of today's Tesla EV's are actually already sun and clean energy powered"... as simply what makes "a great proportion?"

but I will let it go as this thread has a finer focus on the stock.
Sure. It's a bit hard as a Californian in Silicon Valley driving around seeing dozens of Tesla's per day and hundreds of homes with solar panels on them and parking lots with solar canopies every day to be thinking I need to have this huge internal fear that we need a renumeration of this activity right now because I'm not seeing any, so I understand my prejudice on this. But, here's one of the sites I sometimes study to find out what the utility-scale (not home-scale which is a huge proportion too) clean energy provision in California is:

California ISO - Daily renewables watch
California ISO - Todays Outlook (although it's not working right now (rare; I've been following it for years, and it almost always works --- check the "ISO Today" app on iPhone ISO Today on the App Store ))
IMG_3909.PNG IMG_3910.PNG
(I find the ISO Today app to be less complete than the Today's Outlook page, when it is working.)

You can take a sampling of the last decade's worth of Daily Renewables Watch's, and look at the utility scale solar rising slowly but steadily over the decade. At about the same time, non-ISO tracked solar resources come from homes, businesses, and parking lots, growing at a similar (but slightly varying) rate -- teasing that out is a bit harder, but Google searches can find some indications.

If you look at the PDF from "Daily Renewables Watch", you will see the first page totals the one day totals for Monday (a little non-representative because it was the hottest day of the year where I live (a fairly typical regional "indian summer", so nothing odd, except to its average extent)) at 782GWh use, with 110GWh being "renewables", and of that, 58GWh being "solar". "Solar" on the chart is only utility scale solar. So, just counting utility scale solar, 7% of the hottest day of the year was supplied by solar power, and if you look at the averages over the years, that amount has been steadily rising. In addition to utility scale solar, there is a huge amount of non-utility scale solar not counted (my rough rule of thumb is half of the real total, so another 7%, for a total of 14%, but this fluctuates wildly from year to year, so subject to confirmation). So, we're on our way, and there's still a huge market for Tesla to fill.

Here's a sentence in WikiPedia, so subject to question:

"California has the technical potential to install 128.9 GW of rooftop solar panels, which would generate 194,000 GWh/year, about 74% of the total electricity used in California in 2013. 128 GW, though, is three to four times as much electricity as is used, which requires that most of the noon output will need to be stored (for example by producing hydrogen) or exported on a sunny day." Note how the politicians who wrote that said "hydrogen" even though that's not what is being done (Tesla is doing battery, and there are a dozen other methods being implemented in the next decade, none of which are hydrogen). That comes from a report that talks about the nationwide ability to provide electricity:

"Table ES-1 shows our aggregate results.3 The total national technical potential of rooftop PV is 1,118 gigawatts (GW) of installed capacity and 1,432 terawatt-hours (TWh) of annual energy generation. This equates to 39% of total national electric-sector sales, and it is significantly greater than a previous National Renewable Energy Laboratory estimate of 664 GW of installed capacity and 800 TWh of annual energy generation (Denholm and Margolis 2008). The difference can be attributed to increases in module power density, improved estimation of building suitability, higher estimates of the total number of buildings, and improvements in PV performance simulation tools that previously tended to underestimated production."

"These results are sensitive to assumptions about module performance, which is expected to continue improving over time. For example, this analysis assumed a module efficiency of 16% to represent a mixture of various technology types. If a module efficiency of 20% were assumed instead, which corresponds to current premium systems, each of the technical potential estimates would increase by about 25% above the values stated in this report. Furthermore, our results are only estimates of the potential from existing suitable roof planes, and they do not consider the immense potential of ground-mounted PV. Actual generation from PV in urban areas could exceed these estimates by installing systems on less suitable roof area, mounting PV on canopies over open spaces such as parking lots, or integrating PV into building facades."

The industry is already headed way into the 20% efficiency range, and we are already seeing a large number of solar installs in places other than "suitable rooftops". Furthermore, with a solar roof like Tesla is planning to introduce, a lot of the roof which was previously considered "unsuitable" might be covered anyway, collecting even more; we shall see what Elon reveals October 28, 2016 to find out more about that.

Solar efficiency and cost progress has been steady, and it is becoming affordable.

If you add the numbers up, we have to fill almost every rooftop with solar plus a bunch of solar farms in barren lands to power everything, but that's what we're headed to do. We're already about 3% of the way there nationwide, and closer to 7% of the way there in California, and those numbers are always outdated because we're adding more and more.
 
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interesting question... i see oil dropping short term and may continue to have incredibly dramatic fluctuations into the mid 30s... but I think the reasonable range for oil at this time is right where it's at... in the $40 to $45 range... based on shale extraction technologies improving due to decreasing value... what I mean by this is... there's oil in the ground... and they can get it... but it costs them X... and if oil is trading for X-$5... then eventually they will find a way to shave off $5... and start up operations again... so my opinion is... it's trading within a reasonable range today.

I think TSLA is affected by oil prices... because macro market stuff... but also because the idea that TSLA is the opposite of oil... and then on top of that... related to posts I exchanged last week... I do not believe TE is a substantial factor in any short to medium term valuation of TSLA like others here and find it extremely speculative. Beyond this I can't find a justification of TSLA's current valuation based on Auto relative to competitors other than investor enthusiasm. When investor enthusiasm is a significant factor while also having a high risk of execution, this puts TSLA (in my opinion) in a bubble category...

so... i'm not short oil because I see it within a reasonable market value... whereas I see Tesla as substantially outside its marketable value.

It is interesting that you cite execution risk and valuation as the two reasons for your short thesis on TSLA. If Tesla makes GAAP profit and/or does large deliveries in Q3, would you reconsider your position? What are your expectations for Q3, as in # of deliveries, cash flow, GAAP and non-GAAP profit?
 
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One neat feature of the BMW i3 is the carbon fiber body.

BMW Versus Tesla - Two Different Approaches To EVs

Lighter, stronger and less expensive to repair. I'd been hoping that Tesla would trade BMW Tesla battery technology for BMW's carbon fiber technology. Now I'm hoping that Tesla will grab carbon fiber technology from SpaceX..

I don't believe it is less expensive to repair right now. It can't be repaired pretty much the same way Tesla doesn't want body shops re-bending aluminum. The repair strategy is primarily cut out and replace, mostly by gluing. Real world i3 repair costs are very high according to the anecdotal reports I've seen.

Also, there really isn't any recycling story with carbon fiber or CFRP. Aluminum can be cost effectively recycled.
 
I'm not a troll... i am decidedly short TSLA... I am aware that this board is primarily of the alternate opinion... but I joined this board recently for that reason. I do not want to only hear the short thesis and banter that I hear on other boards... i'd rather engage in discussion with alternate opinions such as yourself. I attempt to keep my opinions civil... hopefully it comes across this way... I would hope that the rest on this board would appreciate alternate opinions on this stock as well.

Welcome! I am welcoming some well reasoned short theses - though I haven't been convinced with what I remember reading from your posts - I'll go and reread them...

But what really interest me right now - are you not concerned that Tesla will kill this quarter and TSLA will gap up on Monday? If you'be been following this board you must be aware that there is very good chance of a great quarter, and you're probably aware of market skepticism on Tesla's ability to execute. Those two together sound to me like powder keg...

And I've used this board in opposite way, to lighten up my leverage when I've heard of production problems in previous quarter - never quite enough though :( This is first time in a long while I'm tempted to increase my leverage...
 
It is interesting that you cite execution risk and valuation as the two reasons for your short thesis on TSLA. If Tesla makes GAAP profit and/or does large deliveries in Q3, would you reconsider your position? What are your expectations for Q3, as in # of deliveries, cash flow, GAAP and non-GAAP profit?

One quarter does not a trend make.
There are reports of large discounts to move cars, trying to get people from the 3 reservation to the S, pleading to cut back expenses this quarter to show those meanies on Wall Street.

Now, if that is the new normal and they keep cutting price to move cars at the end of the quarter, then at least there is a structural change and the execution risk is lower.

If not, it is just a one time blip and really means very little except to show that they are not above silly activities like this to try and convince Wall Street they are something they are not.

Edit by Moderator: It seems logical and not at all silly to me, to try to whip workers to produce more when a cap raise is expected around the corner--I mean quarter. To borrow a phrase from a leading presidential candidate, it's smart business. Please review carefully the serious discussion of this matter earlier in the thread.
 
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I don't believe it is less expensive to repair right now. It can't be repaired pretty much the same way Tesla doesn't want body shops re-bending aluminum. The repair strategy is primarily cut out and replace, mostly by gluing. Real world i3 repair costs are very high according to the anecdotal reports I've seen.
Probably not nearly as expensive as the aluminum repair on the MS-MX and clearly much lighter than the steel/aluminum combination in the m3.
 
I'm not a troll... i am decidedly short TSLA... I am aware that this board is primarily of the alternate opinion... but I joined this board recently for that reason. I do not want to only hear the short thesis and banter that I hear on other boards... i'd rather engage in discussion with alternate opinions such as yourself. I attempt to keep my opinions civil... hopefully it comes across this way... I would hope that the rest on this board would appreciate alternate opinions on this stock as well.

I'm going to be brutally honest here: expect the same amount of consideration that you'd get at a Honda forum or NASIOC, which is exactly zero. Car forums are extremely tribal, and cars, particularly those with high horsepower and/or high price tag, are a proxy for power and prestige.

The fact of the matter is that nobody knows what exactly will happen to TSLA, and anyone who claims to do so is either delusional, a liar, or both. That goes for people who both proclaim that Tesla will rule the world, and those who say the company is doomed for sure. The Bull thesis is that Elon Musk and his team are smart enough to make Tesla profitable through a combination of high-margin cars, stationary battery storage, and solar generation. The Bear thesis is that they can't do it.

I see Elon Musk as a "once in a generation" entrepreneur, the kind of guy who is willing to risk it all, even when he doesn't have to, in order to bring radically different products to market. He has tremendous energy, sees the world differently than most people, and can be a real bastard a lot of the time. In the last 20 years, the only other person I've seen with this level of drive, and capacity to elicit division and worship/hate from the public, is Steve Jobs. Jobs' efforts ultimately pushed AAPL well above 500B in market cap, despite the company having been nearly dead by the mid-90's. If anyone could do the same, it would be Elon Musk. So I'm willing to risk a small investment in TSLA for a potentially huge payoff, and my shares will sit in my brokerage account until either the company succeeds wildly or the shares are worth $0. I do not invest any of my 401k or IRA funds in TSLA, so my future solvency is not dependent on the stock. This is my 100% unfiltered opinion.
 
Probably not nearly as expensive as the aluminum repair on the MS-MX and clearly much lighter than the steel/aluminum combination in the m3.

No... actually, way, way higher. Enough so that there are many more instances of total loss, as CFRP repair expertise is exceedingly rare. Certainly, once BMW has CFRP throughout its lineup and many, many more repair shops are trained, then the costs could drop. There were a slew of articles that were basically BMW press release fluff pieces claiming low cost of repair. That's not the real world. The #1 reason for high Tesla repair costs is the high labor cost, partially due to the high level of training and significant investment in custom tooling and jigs. The BMW CFRP repair is worse. It has all of the high labor costs, more in the training and investment costs, fewer locations than Tesla's, and lower parts availability.

I've been considering a used BMW i3 as the prices on these are due to crater soon... but between the very poor reliability record and issues like repair, I've not been able to go down this road.
 
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