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Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells

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There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
IMG_1736.jpeg


For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
IMG_1735.jpeg



As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
 
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Thats around what I’ve started doing, I use 25-30% per day

So 60% to 30% would be considered the perfect charging cycle?

Is it ok for the car to stay at 30% for 10 hrs while it waits to charge till morning?
Its very ok to stay at 30%.

I had my M3P with a two year average SOC of 35.4% (means a lot of time much below 30%, often single digit).

The degradation after 2.5 years / 66000 km
Was very low.

Do you have a trsla with a panasonic battery? In that case 55% or below is better than 60%. The reason is the centralgraphite peak, causing higher calendar aging above 57% true SOC (equals 55% displayed due to the buffer).
IMG_4553.jpeg
 
Its very ok to stay at 30%.

I had my M3P with a two year average SOC of 35.4% (means a lot of time much below 30%, often single digit).

The degradation after 2.5 years / 66000 km
Was very low.

Do you have a trsla with a panasonic battery? In that case 55% or below is better than 60%. The reason is the centralgraphite peak, causing higher calendar aging above 57% true SOC (equals 55% displayed due to the buffer).
View attachment 1043244
Yes 2022 performance

I was charging to 80% when I first got the car then I started charging to 70% now I’m charging to 60

On the weekends I don’t drive as much so I charge to 50% on weekends

I wish the app let you pick your charge level based on which day it is
 
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How do you avoid deep discharges when going on a road trip? If I’m going long distance I expect to charge to 80-90% then drop all the way down to 5-10% before super charging

I might even want to charge to 100% before a trip
 
How do you avoid deep discharges when going on a road trip? If I’m going long distance I expect to charge to 80-90% then drop all the way down to 5-10% before super charging

I might even want to charge to 100% before a trip
Absolutely no issue at all.

Just do whatever you need and rest easy.

Keep that pack warm when supercharging. Don’t supercharge in the morning (annoying practically speaking, and probably not as good for the pack). Charge to where you need it for the next day and don’t worry about the level.

When you finish the trip leave it at 55%.

Road tripping is such a small percentage of the storage time for most people it just does not matter.

It’s just not worth worrying about anything other than getting to your destination with enough charge to be convenient.
 
Well posts in here say deep discharges from a high SoC is an issue
Not a problem. Just do what you need. On a road trip you’re typically going to be doing 70%-80% to 10%.

It’s not like there’s some magic way to avoid it, and look at the plethora of posts from @AAKEE showing that storage charge level is the number one factor. These other things matter but for most people they are not frequent enough to be a huge problem.

You have to use the car. Eventually using it will cause your battery to wear out. Just the way things go. It’s a wear item.
 
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Thats around what I’ve started doing, I use 25-30% per day

So 60% to 30% would be considered the perfect charging cycle?

Is it ok for the car to stay at 30% for 10 hrs while it waits to charge till morning?
That’s totally fine. 20-50% would also be fine if you don’t mind less cushion at the end of the day. Sitting at “low” charge is no issue.
 
I just want to look at this one quote from your post....

The industry standard for considering a battery cell reaching end of life is 20% degradation. When that level is reached the behaviour becames unpredictable, so its better to try to keep the battery above that line.

What is your opinion of Tesla only replacing batteries after 30% degradation ?

We know that the batteries often starts being unpredictable above 20% degradation. The curves often goes south beyond.

Using low power and low discharge rates can make cells work fine even when they passed 20% degradation but there is no guarantee they will.
I see a risk of getting for example imbalance that the pack can not handle.

So, I would not buy a car with a pack above 20% degradation. I will make sure it is below and that it can stay below 20% for the time I have that car.

Just a few examples, we can se that the degradation is stable until about 20% degradation. (From memory, in this casse the Gr Sio of the anode was consumed at that point.
IMG_1923.jpeg



IMG_1763.jpeg

IMG_1762.jpeg



There are also examples where it do not go south at 20% degradation and using the pack carefully might keep it safe, but I think its wise to try to stay above.

The Tesla warranty with at least 70% capacity warranted will probably mean that if one actually go there we know that that pack is toast.
Also, as it seems from the service menu battery test, Tesla use the degradation threshold as the 0% level, effectively meaning that when we have lost 30% indicated range we have lost 32-34% real capacity.
 
Well posts in here say deep discharges from a high SoC is an issue
Yes and no. Calendar aging is still the biggest factor for degradation.

But if you use 30% of charge per day, what else are you going to do? It would be impractical for most people to charge several times a day just to maintain a lower depth of discharge.

All this means is that it’s better for you to charge 30-60% daily rather than waiting until it gets low first to charge again (eg 100% to 10% over 3 days or 80% to 20% over 2 days).

Remember this is for daily use, assuming you have charging at home or work. If you’re taking a road trip and need to use 100% down to 10% for example, there is no need to worry about it or overthink it. Just use the car as you need to.
 
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How do you avoid deep discharges when going on a road trip? If I’m going long distance I expect to charge to 80-90% then drop all the way down to 5-10% before super charging

I might even want to charge to 100% before a trip
Thats completely safe.

This test did run the cells (Panna ncr18650 like S/X) between 100% and the real 0% (below the Tesla buffer) and normal driving is around 0.2-0.3C so it means that the battery can do 750-800 full cycles until it has lost 25% (no calendar aging counted in that case. Continlously using these 100-0% and it will do about 750 cycles. Thats 750 x 400km real range, so 300K km or 186K miles.
IMG_1924.jpeg



This is actual model 3 cells from a rather new model 3 2018 taken out of the car and tested. We can see that we get around 1000 cycles from these cells, doing 100-0%. So, thats even more miles.
Each 100-0% cycle will wear around 0.025% so 40 cycles to cause 1% degradation.

IMG_3580.jpeg



I already have around 12 full charges on my 2023 Plaid, and my battery still has the same capacity as most Plaids ever reach (97.2kWh, after 1 year and 19K km.) I have several cycles that actually are close to 100-0% (indicated).
As i use low SOC strategy (meaning only charge to more than 55% when it is needed) I can supercharge and charge full when needed and still have much lower degradation than the most other cars.

Same for my 2021 (now sold) M3P. In the absolute top of low degradation in teslafi after 2.5 years and 66K km, despite >30 full charges and several 100-0% cycles. Also had 50-55 Supercharging sessions.

Remember = calendar aging causes the absolute most part of the degradation for the first 5-8 (-10) years or so, which means that if you cut the calendar aging in half you actually can abuse the battery in other ways and still be much better than the most other cars.

Se the proportions below.
IMG_8579.jpeg
 
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How do you avoid deep discharges when going on a road trip?

There is an issue with that term. Deep discharge is a (for example) lead acid battery issue. They do not like to go below 50% SOC, and they wear a lot from low SOC.

The *deep discharge* (as long as not below 0% real SOC) is not an issue for a lithium ion battery. We should extingt that term from the lithium battery discussions.

The thing that wear is large cycles. Its called *Dept of discharge* (DoD) but it the termo itself is not dependant on how low the SOC goes. It is the change in SOC.
100-80% is 20% DoD, and 60-40% is also 20% DoD.

In general, we should keep the depth of discharge small, as it causes less degradation. And, as Dr Jeff says, the microcracks from change in size will be less.

But this ^^^ is not a big problem. In many tests Panasonic NCA holds up about as well for 100-0% cycles as the smaller ones.
The principle is to keep smallycles in general, but remember that the large cycles is not a big problem. It will increase the wear per cycle, but not to the extent that it is a problem.

This will explain that part: In this picture we can see real model 3 cells cycled. We loose 25% for 1000 cycles doing 100%- true 0%.
IMG_3580.jpeg

For comparison, we loose about 5% for 1000FCE cycles between 55-45 or 45-35% (wich is pretty small cycles in the real sweet spot region for these batteries). So when going from full 100%-0% cycles which gives the battery 400K km/250K mi life we go to a 2 million km life.
Doing small cycles in the real swet spot renders the battery almost unlimited life for cycles, and if we use 100% to 0% we still have a rather good cycle life. No issues, nothing to be afraid of.
IMG_5171.jpeg



So, if we use low SOC when we can, we can go 100 to 0% when we need without any worries.


Most discussions tends to circle around the idea that the batteries is very sensitive and dislike low or high SOC.
But the lithum batteries was actually made to be cycled between 100% and 0%.
100% is where the manufacturer says ”stop charging” for a descent lifetime of the cell. (They can be charge much higer to the cost of cycle life.)
0% is where the manufacturer says ”stop discharging” for a descent lifetime of the cell.

Again, they was made to be cycled between 100 to 0%.
 
I’ve noticed I’ve gained back some miles to my estimator after doing lower soc charges too, I’ve gained like 3 miles
Low SOC and low SOC small cycles give the battery the possibility to recover capacity.

After a series of superchargins etc, when using low SOC and cycling the battery in a nice way, the capacity will recover by returining part of the plated lithium to cyclable lithium.
 
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For comparison, we loose about 5% for 1000FCE cycles between 55-45 or 45-35% (wich is pretty small cycles in the real sweet spot region for these batteries)
Why are the low SOC cycles so poor here? I think you have addressed this before but don’t remember.

Also why is cycling across the graphite peak not the worst? You’d think that might be really bad but I guess not?
 
How do you avoid deep discharges when going on a road trip?
You don't. You appreciate the long range you have maintained optimally through your otherwise diligent battery management.

If I’m going long distance I expect to charge to 80-90% then drop all the way down to 5-10% before super charging

I might even want to charge to 100% before a trip

Then make it so.

I suspect (AAKEE appreciate your opinion) that L2 charging to 100% and avoiding a supercharger stop will be superior for battery life than the reverse.
 
On my road trip yesterday, I stopped three times for coffee and bladder...but didn’t recharge once
I find myself in that position as well where the biological factors don’t align with the battery schedule. Especially if there are multiple bladders or kids bladders in the vehicle. Changes the flow but end up taking advantage of any charging accordingly. Hence I haven’t seen the need for going after any more additional range than already have. Actually I like to stop more often as a precaution with my prior blood clot issue to move legs around and get the blood flowing.
 
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I find myself in that position as well where the biological factors don’t align with the battery schedule. Especially if there are multiple bladders or kids bladders in the vehicle. Changes the flow but end up taking advantage of any charging accordingly. Hence I haven’t seen the need for going after any more additional range than already have. Actually I like to stop more often as a precaution with my prior blood clot issue to move legs around and get the blood flowing.
I have little older children, didn’t have the issue of stopping more often than the EV need charging but at *any* charging stop the car wins over the family :)