Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[tomas]

Agree. Also, keep in mind the post#1 addendum went up yesterday to minimize "a lot of irrelevant posts" you are referring to, hopefully

If an irrelevant post is in, we should direct the poster to read the Post#1 first.

Yes, and we need the charging FAQ. Each generation of owners seems to relearn what prior generations already know.

 

[Spacey73]

S85 late 2014 model I think, 114k miles.

221 miles in battery on rated setting (guessing everyone is using rated reading?), it gained about 10 miles after a recent update (am on v10).

Only bought the car 3 weeks ago and was hoping for more range.

 

[Droschke]

...and we need the charging FAQ.

We definitely don't want to make this thread a catch-all thread.

What kind of charging questions as they would be relevant to the topic of this thread and not discussed elsewhere in the forum you have in mind?

 

[Droschke]

S85 late 2014 model I think

You only think?

On Edit: Speaking of a catch-all thread I just mentioned one post up, your post seems to belong to that category, at least the way your post is constructed.

 

[tomas]

We definitely don't want to make this thread a catch-all thread.

What kind of charging questions as they would be relevant to the topic of this thread and not discussed elsewhere in the forum you have in mind?

Off the top of my head:
* Standard terms - kW, kWh, voltage, SOC...
* Normal degradation curve - what have others experienced (going back to roadster)
* Charging Curve - understanding that charge rate varies by SOC and why
* All of the range displays on the Tesla, what they mean, and what they don't
- rated #
- rated %
- projected in energy app
- estimated in navigation and trip window
* Vampire drain. What to expect, why, impact of various settings.
* Wh/mi or km. What to expect and what it means.
* Battery science
- "happy" SOC values (e.g., average 50% SOC)
- "unhappy" SOC values (e.g., >90, <10)
- "happy" temperatures
- "unhappy" temperatures
- Role of BMS
* Effect of various factors on actual range
- driving habits
- speed
- wind
- elevation
- stop/go local vs. highway
- cold weather
. Short trips
. Long trips
. How to mitigate

And, I'm not saying they should be in this thread or your intro. I agree with not making it a catch all. It's just that there's a lot of lack of knowledge of these basic things that keeps creeping into this and many other threads, which makes any thread re: battery/charging/range a de-facto catch all.

I'm sure there's more. Ages ago I posted some FAQs/wikis on other topics (e.g., software updates), but got a bit frustrated that people don't bother to read good/verified information, and prefer to cherry pick unverified, anecdotal non-facts from threads. I guess it's more fun to read fiction or at least drama than non-fiction science

 

[cpa]

True but brands are capricious things, especially exclusive brands looking to command a price premium. Tesla built its brand on being a better kind of car company and having better technology than anyone else--of being closer to Silicon Valley and Apple than to Detroit and the Big 3.

Now we are finding that the service experience can be a little lacking, and maybe the BMS and battery technology was not as solid as they thought and willingness to honor warranties is squishy and they will apply stealth updates that remove features and capabilities as suits their purposes--all these things accumulate and start to color the brand perception and cause unabashedly enthusiastic owner references to start to become a bit more tempered and its going to cause people to consider EV alternatives or pass altogether and stick with what's comfortable.

Yes, this is what I meant, thank you. Tesla has shown that it cannot be trusted with these latest series of events. Surreptitious changes to our car that reduce our enjoyment and reduce its utility are not things that build brand loyalty, especially when we paid for them and when we believed their pronouncements.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[Droschke]

Off the top of my head:
* Standard terms - kW, kWh, voltage, SOC...
* Normal degradation curve - what have others experienced (going back to roadster)
* Charging Curve - understanding that charge rate varies by SOC and why
* All of the range displays on the Tesla, what they mean, and what they don't
- rated #
- rated %
- estimated in energy app
- estimated in navigation and trip window
* Vampire drain. What to expect, why, impact of various settings.
* Wh/mi or km. What to expect and what it means.
* Battery science
- "happy" SOC values (e.g., average 50% SOC)
- "unhappy" SOC values (e.g., >90, <10)
- "happy" temperatures
- "unhappy" temperatures
- Role of BMS
* Effect of various factors on actual range
- driving habits
- speed
- wind
- elevation
- stop/go local vs. highway
- cold weather
. Short trips
. Long trips
. How to mitigate

And, I'm not saying they should be in this thread or your intro. I agree with not making it a catch all. It's just that there's a lot of lack of knowledge of these basic things that keeps creeping into this and many other threads, which makes any thread re: battery/charging/range a de-facto catch all.

I'm sure there's more. Ages ago I posted some FAQs/wikis on other topics (e.g., software updates), but got a bit frustrated that people don't bother to read good/verified information, and prefer to cherry pick unverified, anecdotal non-facts from threads. I guess it's more fun to read fiction or at least drama than non-fiction science

@tomas,

Thanks for your feedback. Agree with all your great observations. This very thread is under the main "Model S: Battery & Charging" sub-forum. There are several Sticky threads on charging. Many of your FAQ topics are scattered among those threads and I agree that none seem to be the FAQ type of discussion that you are contemplating. Obviously, the Search tool is there to help any new/novice poster as well.

Start a new thread in the sub-forum with your own wiki style post, get the moderators involved and invite participation. That would be great. We can point to that thread from here. What do you think?

BTW, few of your items are already covered in this thread's wiki somewhat as they are relevant to the topic here. But more can be covered elsewhere.

 

[hpartsch]

Thanks for giving the new info on how to calculate the battery capacity on the 1st page. I inputted my data into the spreadsheet. Looks like I have very little battery degradation and no range limiting (currently at 74.8 kWH for an "85" kWH pack). However, I am affected by charge rate-limiting -- which makes road trips a bit painful and not as practical...

Interesting to look through the data. Based on data in the excel document - it does seem like frequent supercharging degrades the battery much quicker. However, the data set is still pretty small.

 

[First EV]

S85 late 2014 model I think, 114k miles.

221 miles in battery on rated setting (guessing everyone is using rated reading?), it gained about 10 miles after a recent update (am on v10).

Only bought the car 3 weeks ago and was hoping for more range.

The production date is on the drivers door jamb. Is this at 90 or 100%?

 

[cpa]

Last add: We do not know the truth about batterygate and chargegate. They furtively reduce charging capacity in some models, and they reduce Supercharging speeds in others. Some have both. What is to say that in another five years when hundreds of thousands of S and X are clearly beyond the 8-year warranty that Tesla doesn't include a poison pill disguised as "minor bug fixes and improvements" to reduce the cell voltage slowly over several months to 3.85 or so so that range is now half or so of new. Other cars receive yet even more reduced Supercharging speeds so that to charge from 20% to 80% takes two hours.

Tesla can tell us that we need a new battery, or they could tell us our car is fine if we do not need to drive long distances or Supercharge quickly. Or they can try to sell us on a new car. All because of their artifice in downloading poisonous software to encourage us to spend more money on their products. This purely fictive scenario might be wedged deep in Musk's brain should Tesla not attain the results they want.

And at this point, we don't know just how good the Model 3 batteries are. I assume the Model Y will have similar ones. Then there is the pick up and the eagerly anticipated Tesla semi. There are going to be millions of battery packs in Tesla vehicles in the next few years if sales continue as they have. Who is to say whether Tesla will start playing their little games on these vehicles as they age and Tesla determines that warranty costs will skyrocket? Or in the alternative, Tesla needs to increase sales, so they gimp the batteries?

Look, I am an accountant. The most important function that we do before any engagement is to evaluate client bias. Once we have a grip on the client's bias, we know our focus. From my view, Tesla's bias is to sell more cars and show as much profit (or as little loss) as they can, followed by a large stockpile of cash. Hence, do whatever it takes to accomplish these goals. If that means poor service, capping the voltage in the batteries, or throttling the SC rates, so be it. To Tesla the end justifies the means. And Tesla's end is to start showing profits and hoarding cash by selling more cars, period.

The Tesla shills won't like what I wrote. But what do you truly believe in your head, not your heart is Tesla's bias?

 

[Veggen]

Gimping batteries to increase sales make no sense.
Who in their right mind would buy a new car from a company treating their customers like that.
As a 6 year owner, entusiast and shareholder this situation makes me very sad.

 

[Droschke]

Last add: We do not know the truth about batterygate and chargegate. They furtively reduce charging capacity in some models, and they reduce Supercharging speeds in others. Some have both. What is to say that in another five years when hundreds of thousands of S and X are clearly beyond the 8-year warranty that Tesla doesn't include a poison pill disguised as "minor bug fixes and improvements" to reduce the cell voltage slowly over several months to 3.85 or so so that range is now half or so of new. Other cars receive yet even more reduced Supercharging speeds so that to charge from 20% to 80% takes two hours.

Tesla can tell us that we need a new battery, or they could tell us our car is fine if we do not need to drive long distances or Supercharge quickly. Or they can try to sell us on a new car. All because of their artifice in downloading poisonous software to encourage us to spend more money on their products. This purely fictive scenario might be wedged deep in Musk's brain should Tesla not attain the results they want.

And at this point, we don't know just how good the Model 3 batteries are. I assume the Model Y will have similar ones. Then there is the pick up and the eagerly anticipated Tesla semi. There are going to be millions of battery packs in Tesla vehicles in the next few years if sales continue as they have. Who is to say whether Tesla will start playing their little games on these vehicles as they age and Tesla determines that warranty costs will skyrocket? Or in the alternative, Tesla needs to increase sales, so they gimp the batteries?

Look, I am an accountant. The most important function that we do before any engagement is to evaluate client bias. Once we have a grip on the client's bias, we know our focus. From my view, Tesla's bias is to sell more cars and show as much profit (or as little loss) as they can, followed by a large stockpile of cash. Hence, do whatever it takes to accomplish these goals. If that means poor service, capping the voltage in the batteries, or throttling the SC rates, so be it. To Tesla the end justifies the means. And Tesla's end is to start showing profits and hoarding cash by selling more cars, period.

The Tesla shills won't like what I wrote. But what do you truly believe in your head, not your heart is Tesla's bias?

Well stated. Keep posting please. Thank you.

 

[hill]

Some owners got snarky over the years when various complaints arose about our cars. The "whiner" term comes to memory. We got rid of our S AND our X prior to 2019.16.x due to some of the aforementioned. We learned after V9 that we'd lost the UI setup that we bought the cars for, & described to subsequent owners how to avoid future updates, to prevent such deleterious results. A couple threads discuss how to do this. Have any members here had to foresight to WAIT a few weeks prior to proceeding with updates? So many new folks here don't seem to know what kind of grenades the code writers potentially hid in updates. Rather - it's "weeeee !!! I'm one of the 1st to get the latest and greatest improvement!".
.

 

[DJRas]

And now this:
NHTSA Accepts Defect Petition On Tesla Model S And X Batteries

 

[MP3Mike]

And now this:
NHTSA Accepts Defect Petition On Tesla Model S And X Batteries

Yep, another article making false claims. The defect petition hasn't been accepted, and they aren't doing an investigation, at least not yet.

 

[Droschke]

Yep, another article making false claims.

Looks like something has distracted your attention lately to inform us. What are the other articles making false claims?

 

[Droschke]

The Tesla shills won't like what I wrote. But what do you truly believe in your head, not your heart is Tesla's bias?

Not sure if they know the difference between the head and heart

 

[Chaserr]

in·ves·ti·gate
/inˈvestəˌɡāt/
Learn to pronounce
verb

1. carry out a systematic or formal inquiry to discover and examine the facts of (an incident, allegation, etc.) so as to establish the truth.

Tesla had been served a formal ultimatum to provide the demanded information and they have no Choice but to comply. Pedantics have no power to end an NHTSA investigation and the office of defect investigations has no disagree button. The facts are being investigated. The truth is being established. There's no need to worry about the truth, it's what we all want. This investigation will help us and it will help Tesla. Hopefully they'll fire whoever made it necessary so Tesla can come out of this a better company.

 

[DJRas]

Yep, another article making false claims. The defect petition hasn't been accepted, and they aren't doing an investigation, at least not yet.

Maybe not an "official" investigation. But what else do you call NHTSA's review of the thousands of documents and data requested?

Edit: what it is called is "evaluation".

 

[Droschke]

Tesla will eventually implode ... because its set of new customers will dry up

Huh? I don't get your point. Did Ford's customer base dry up? GM's? Why will people stop buying new Tesla's? They won't last forever. Probably not much longer than an ICE (how many ICE cars are replaced because the engine dies? ICE rebuilds/replacements are easy)

@tga - You are not getting it. Ford and GM honor their warranty obligations. Who wants to buy a car (from a company) that can't make it through its warranty period?