Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[Tedkidd]

What about the slowly lowering CPO pricing bringing cars to buyers under 60K. Some with moderate budgets, living near superchargers in condos or apartments will supercharge as their norm. They may ask their sales rep about that and I suspect they will be told that in their case, this is an acceptable issue and to go ahead with the purchase.

i think primarily, the repeat use Elon talks about are Uber and Taxi high use drivers. Two, three times a day, maybe.

$60,000 is not an inexpensive car. Would anybody argue the difference between saving 15¢ a mile and saving 18¢ a mile is material, particularly given the car still costs nearly $1 a mile to own?

This conversation seems to keep shifting to the cost of energy and away from the problem of maintaining unfettered access, which seems the true value proposition superchargers offer.

If we keep making a big deal about the "free energy" without conveying that the energy value is fairly immaterial, won't that send the wrong message to those who might be mathematically challenged?

 

[Spidy]

The cost of energy is still the reason a lot of people might do this. And someone who paid 50k for a car is simply more likely to do that than someone who paid 100k.

If we look at the Model 3 then people who usually spend around 20k for a car might consider a 30k+ car when the consider the gas and electricity savings. That might even be a reason they get a Model 3 over a Bolt, because they save a few thousand by just using superchargers.

Especially in Europe with 2-3 the electricity prices compared to the US the savings can really ad up.

 

[Tedkidd]

The "thousands" saved are in arbitrage from gas to electric, not from chasing free electricity. Driving 10,000 miles costs me $300 in energy. Arbitrage saves me $1000,... Maybe.


I've gotta drive a LONG way on free energy for it to save "thousands." The big savings is the arbitrage, not running around trying to get free electricity. I'm not rich, I might not even qualify as middle class. Even if there were a Supercharger near me, I'm just not going out of my way for $3 of electricity. The Economics just don't make sense.

In Home Performance I've found people do a lot of stupid things chasing unmeasured "savings", and once you quantify the savings their efforts net, those behaviors change quickly. We need to talk often about the economics and maybe we can reduce stupid charging behavior and insure better SC experience for all.

 

[wk057]

I think something that I've noted previously needs reiterating: The supercharger network is a marketing expense. I think so long as that marketing expenditure is generating more return than it is costing over some period of time..... then I don't think Tesla is going to care how much or how little the network is used or who is using it when. As long as it's helping to sell cars, that's what matters.

Eventually it won't make sense to continue to dump marketing funds into the supercharger network, at which point maintenance, electricity costs, etc will need to come from somewhere. That said, I'm really betting that supercharging is not going to be free for life for Model 3 on down the line.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The supercharger network is a marketing expense. I think so long as that marketing expenditure is generating more return than it is costing over some period of time..... then I don't think Tesla is going to care how much or how little the network is used or who is using it when. As long as it's helping to sell cars, that's what matters.

However, the issue at the moment is that Tesla (or Elon, same thing?) is showing they do care. Otherwise there is no need to even send such notices. And a subtle point is that although cost of building the network so far is a marketing expense, the cost of maintaining the network is a $500 per car line item. And the main effect other than increasing network installation requirements that this usage has is more maintenance/electricity cost burden than that line item can cover.

That said, I'm really betting that supercharging is not going to be free for life for Model 3 on down the line.

I can see it being free for life for long distance. I don't see it being free for life for local charging. The reason is the average owner uses superchargers for only 5% of their miles. So someone who uses it for local charging is going to use the same as 20 other owners combined. For the same reason, I don't see free "city chargers" being sustainable in the long run. I think it is a temporary measure while cities figure out ways to address the city charging problem.

I happened to come across this reference too from January 2014 (note how Elon prefaces the comment with "long distance" also):
"Free long-distance travel for ALL FUTURE VEHICLES"
http://my.teslamotors.com/forum/for...eaning-free-use-supercharger-network-all-futu
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ong-distance-trave-for-ALL-FUTURE-VEHICLES!!!

 

[scaesare]

...(note how Elon prefaces the comment with "long distance" also):
"Free long-distance travel for ALL FUTURE VEHICLES"

But that's not possible from a year and a half ago!. They've changed their stance!!

IT'S A BAIT AND SWITCH!!

 

[bonnie]

But that's not possible from a year and a half ago!. They've changed their stance!!

IT'S A BAIT AND SWITCH!!

Foul!

It's against the game rules to take a drink when you say the phrase yourself. For shame.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I wonder how many of such examples of Tesla marketing free Supercharging for non-long-distance use are people going to ignore. I stopped trying to post them myself a long time ago, since each and every one was just summarily ignored as evidence of nothing.

The notion that this marketing is simply related to urban Superchargers for road-side city parkers is ludicrous - or that a reader would somehow construe that exception from this kind of page:

Guess we have a new data point:

What does "FREE COMMUTING USING TESLA SUPERCHARGERS" mean?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

deonb: There have been several of such cases posted on TMC.

I want you to scroll to the bottom of this page. Now scroll back up.

Did you see the disclaimer:
"Tesla Motors Club LLC (TMC) is an independent enthusiast organization and is not affiliated with Tesla Motors, Inc. or its subsidiaries"

That can/should be interpreted as "A vibe that you get from TMC does not make for an official statement by Tesla Motors, Inc."

If it did, people buying a Model S in 2013 definitely had cause for legal action when they found out only later that the Model S did NOT, in fact, come with a hidden plug in the frunk for plugging in an 'Aluminum Air' range extension battery. I don't think you were here for that... but it was just about the surest thing that never existed.

The fact remains, you have no first-hand proof or knowledge of any salesmen from Tesla that told anybody that they should forgo local charging and only use Supercharging, in order to save money. So could you please stop pretending that you do. If you think someone else has such knowledge, by all means PM them and tell them to come make their case on here.

Perhaps you misunderstand me.

Obviously I meant, there are many cases posted by TMC members saying they were told by their Tesla sales men at official Tesla stores, as a part of the sales pitch, that Supercharging would be unlimited and free. No qualifiers.

There are many such even in this thread and more so in the few other threads on the topic.

In fact, these are so common that there is already a standard response to this argument on TMC: these people should have known the salesperson's pitch is too good to be true.

Perhaps you just choose to ignore them or consider the reports untrustworthy, I don't know. They are plentiful.

 

[AlMc]

I am far from the smartest person 'in the room' here but it occurs to me that the people on either side of this issue are not going to convince the other side that they are ,'incorrect', 'wrong', 'unable to understand', 'not reading my quotes correctly'. I enjoy a good debate as much as most but this one 'jumped the shark', 'beat the dead horse' 80 pages ago.

edit: Sorry: Please continue....

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I am far from the smartest person 'in the room' here but it occurs to me that the people on either side of this issue are not going to convince the other side that they are ,'incorrect', 'wrong', 'unable to understand', 'not reading my quotes correctly'. I enjoy a good debate as much as most but this one 'jumped the shark', 'beat the dead horse' 80 pages ago.

edit: Sorry: Please continue....

I'd gladly settle for a fair documentation of the agreements and the disagreements. That's all I've really been after since my first summary some fifty pages ago. The drinking games and whatnot does not really help reach any understanding, but I guess it makes good fun for some - to make fun of other members.

I visit this thread nowadays maybe once a week and it keeps growing in the meantime.

 

[TexasEV]

Perhaps you misunderstand me.

Obviously I meant, there are many cases posted by TMC members saying they were told by their Tesla sales men at official Tesla stores, as a part of the sales pitch, that Supercharging would be unlimited and free. No qualifiers.

There are many such even in this thread and more so in the few other threads on the topic.

In fact, these are so common that there is already a standard response to this argument on TMC: these people should have known the salesperson's pitch is too good to be true.

Perhaps you just choose to ignore them or consider the reports untrustworthy, I don't know. They are plentiful.

So I'll repeat my question, which so far has not received a response, and I interpret that lack of response as a "no". Was anyone told they shouldn't bother installing a 14-50 or HPWC in their garage because there's a supercharger near their house? Or to put it another way, was anyone here told that their local supercharger was a substitute for home charging even for those able to do so, rather than a supplement to it?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

With this software update, we’ll enable access and you’ll be able to enjoy free,unlimited use of the Tesla Supercharger network.

http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/def...ate_1.15.8.pdf

My point was it was not a feature they really advertised and notably absent in their front/supercharger page ads. The FAQ mention is taken out of context and doesn't use the "unlimited" wording. In fact it's really tough to dig for examples where they used "unlimited" whereas it's extremely easy to find references to long distance and roadtrips in all their ads (and I'm referring to even before Elon's recent statement by looking at the internet archive). However, people here has chosen to focus on them advertising "free unlimited superchargers" when it is extremely rare that that they use that wording and when they do it is buried somewhere.

This is just splitting hairs on your part. The FAQ said "Customers are free to use the network as much as they like." Saying unlimited is, obviously, just used for brevity.

Of course, Tesla has now changed the FAQ to make a few extra points about long-distance charging... not at all "bait and switching" of course

Supercharging | Tesla Motors

So one has to use the Wayback Machine e.g. January 2015:

Supercharging | Tesla Motors

- - - Updated - - -

So I'll repeat my question, which so far has not received a response, and I interpret that lack of response as a "no". Was anyone told they shouldn't bother installing a 14-50 or HPWC in their garage because there's a supercharger near their house? Or to put it another way, was anyone here told that their local supercharger was a substitute for home charging even for those able to do so, rather than a supplement to it?

Irrelevant. Tesla encouraging home charging is of course a fact, but that in no way invalidates the argument that Tesla marketed unlimited, no qualifiers, use of the Supercharger network for life of Model S.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to agree there is a disagreement on what Tesla marketed or did not market - and how - regarding Supercharging, but home-charging, destination charging etc. promotion is wholly separate from that debate.

If your point is proof of Tesla's intent, it is unnecessary. Nobody here is suggesting Tesla wants Supercharger's to be used as a TOC vehicle (even though in Europe they advertise 30% TOC savings from Supercharging), the debate is about whether or not they still marketed it in a way (and thus gaining marketing benefits from that) that they couldn't morally (perhaps even legally) forbid its use as one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I wonder how many of such examples of Tesla marketing free Supercharging for non-long-distance use are people going to ignore. I stopped trying to post them myself a long time ago, since each and every one was just summarily ignored as evidence of nothing.

The notion that this marketing is simply related to urban Superchargers for road-side city parkers is ludicrous - or that a reader would somehow construe that exception from this kind of page:

So far I have only seen two examples:
1) City superchargers (for people without home charging)
2) This example for fleet users (and given it is in UK only, the assumption it'll mainly be for city parkers is not ludicrous, given a large majority of UK superchargers are city superchargers).

Both of these references were added this year (non-existent before then).

I don't see that as "many" nor refuting the core message of long distance (of which we have posted examples from the moment the supercharger network was launch, up to and including today).

 

[smac]

I went to the London launch, and it was very clear the intention when Elon stood up and said "Just imagine never paying for fuel again". It was an educated gamble that most people would do the time sensible thing and charge at home.

However I've heard people sending their wives out to charge at the SC because "I paid for it" (The electricity not the wives hopefully :tongue On top of Taxis and executive transport running the cars 24/7. One firm has nearly 5% of the UK fleet!

It's not just the electricity cost (which I reverse engineered out to be $500 a car) but the limited resource that is a Supercharger. Congestion is the last thing Tesla need right now.

Now here O2 did an unlimited data plan, and in the end they couldn't unwind their position, so just sat it out and waited for all those contracts to expire. But at one point 0.1% of the users were using 36% of the bandwidth!

Ultimately in my view it's about "unsetting" expectations, whether or not they were intend that way, or simply taken to extremis or out of context. Certainly every press article re-iterates this "free 'fuel' for life" meme, and Tesla have never done anything to stop them

One thing is for sure it will have a big impact on Taxi sales!

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is just splitting hairs on your part. The FAQ said "Customers are free to use the network as much as they like." Saying unlimited is, obviously, just used for brevity.

Of course, Tesla has now changed the FAQ to make a few extra points about long-distance charging... not at all "bait and switching" of course

Supercharging | Tesla Motors

So one has to use the Wayback Machine e.g. January 2015:

Supercharging | Tesla Motors

You aren't seriously going to play this game right? Because I already pointed out references to "long distance" from the moment the superchargers launched.

I don't want to rehash, so will link back to my comments on this:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...Notes/page52?p=1042648&viewfull=1#post1042648

It's not a bait and switch to add more lines in that regard in the second FAQ page.

I couldn't find my other comment that has other references, but for clarity I will put it back out here:

9/23/2012 unveiling - 4/24/2013:
"They’re designed to give road trippers half a charge in about half an hour...
Supercharging is a game-changing solution to a common question – how to enable long road trips in an electric vehicle without long stops."
https://web.archive.org/web/20120925135117/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
https://web.archive.org/web/20130425080028/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

6/8/2013 update - 1/8/2015:
"ROAD TRIPS MADE EASY...Tesla Superchargers allow Model S owners to travel for free between cities along well-traveled highways in North America. Road trippers can stop for a quick meal and have their Model S charged when they’re done
...
Why is it free?
We want to encourage Model S owners to take road trips."
https://web.archive.org/web/20130728102732/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
https://web.archive.org/web/20150108122223/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

My point is: you are continually trying to put the impression there that "long distance" / road trips was added only recently in 2015 when it is the other way around: local use was added recently in 2015 (in response to markets without home charging). Before then there was absolutely no reference to local use on superchargers.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I went to the London launch, and it was very clear the intention when Elon stood up and said "Just imagine never paying for fuel again". It was an educated gamble that most people would do the time sensible thing and charge at home.

...

Ultimately in my view it's about "unsetting" expectations, whether or not they were intend that way, or simply taken to extremis or out of context. Certainly every press article re-iterates this "free 'fuel' for life" meme, and Tesla have never done anything to stop them

...nor did Tesla do much, if anything, to stop their own salesforce from repeating the "free, unlimited" mantra if the examples I've seen are anything to go by.

Why would people not have repeated it. Tesla's messaging on this was something vague at best to clearly not excluding local charging at worst. The bolded part, indeed. That was Tesla's general messaging tone on this, IMO, prior to this spring/summer.

Anyway, smac, your datapoint is thus dutifully ignored.

- - - Updated - - -

You aren't seriously going to play this game right? Because I already pointed out references to "long distance" from the moment the superchargers launched.

My point was a counter to you complaining FAQ doesn't mention "unlimited". My response was specific to this complaint: I think the FAQ said so in other words, as quoted.

My point is: you are continually trying to put the impression there that "long distance" / road trips was added only recently in 2015 when it is the other way around: local use was added recently in 2015 (in response to markets without home charging). Before then there was absolutely no reference to local use on superchargers.

And you continually miss my point.

I have acknowledged multiple times, and continue to do so, that long-distance travel was a primary motivator for building the Supercharger network and that it was launched as such.

My argument is: Since then, Tesla took that notion to a marketing message that boiled down to "free, unlimited, for life". They expanded on that in marketing (their own salesforce and possibly press work included), because it was a good marketing message (not because they wanted people to TOC charge, but because they calculated not many would). My point is, because they marketed it as such and gained marketing benefit, they are now duty-bound to respect it. Which I expect they will.

 

[TexasEV]

I went to the London launch, and it was very clear the intention when Elon stood up and said "Just imagine never paying for fuel again". It was an educated gamble that most people would do the time sensible thing and charge at home.

However I've heard people sending their wives out to charge at the SC because "I paid for it" (The electricity not the wives hopefully :tongue On top of Taxis and executive transport running the cars 24/7. One firm has nearly 5% of the UK fleet!

It's not just the electricity cost (which I reverse engineered out to be $500 a car) but the limited resource that is a Supercharger. Congestion is the last thing Tesla need right now.

Now here O2 did an unlimited data plan, and in the end they couldn't unwind their position, so just sat it out and waited for all those contracts to expire. But at one point 0.1% of the users were using 36% of the bandwidth!

Ultimately in my view it's about "unsetting" expectations, whether or not they were intend that way, or simply taken to extremis or out of context. Certainly every press article re-iterates this "free 'fuel' for life" meme, and Tesla have never done anything to stop them

One thing is for sure it will have a big impact on Taxi sales!

Tesla has cited London as an example where people routinely park expensive cars on the street by their house, and don't have the capability for home charging, that is why they have installed superchargers in the city. Tesla expects most of its London owners to do their local charging at superchargers. It's an acknowledgment that London is different than California or almost anywhere else in the U.S., where most people with the income to consider buying a Tesla lives in a single family home with a garage.

 

[stopcrazypp]

My point was a counter to you complaining FAQ doesn't mention "unlimited". My response was specific to this complaint: I think the FAQ said so in other words, as quoted.

I already addressed that specific line many times, so hopefully this time it sticks: Don't take the line out of context.

Here's the whole line (and this is from your archived quote from January 2015, not the current page and has been in the FAQs since 6/2013 when FAQs were added, in case you want to say it is "bait and switch" again):
"How often can I Supercharge? Is it bad for my battery?
Supercharging does not alter the new vehicle warranty. Customers are free to use the network as much as they like."
https://web.archive.org/web/20130608104542/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger?
That was used in context of the impact on the warranty and the battery. It was not used in the context of whether you can use it to offset all your daily charging, for example.

Why would they need that line there? Because when the Leaf came out, Nissan had it written in their user manual not to quick charge their car more than once per day. So when using a supercharger on a roadtrip, such a policy obviously would be run counter to the practicality of the system (you are very likely to supercharge more than once per day on a road trip).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I already addressed that specific line many times, so hopefully this time it sticks: Don't take the line out of context.

Here's the whole line (and this is from your archived quote from January 2015, not the current page and has been in the FAQs since 6/2013 when FAQs were added, in case you want to say it is "bait and switch" again):
"How often can I Supercharge? Is it bad for my battery?
Supercharging does not alter the new vehicle warranty. Customers are free to use the network as much as they like."
https://web.archive.org/web/20130608104542/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger?
That was used in context of the impact on the warranty and the battery. It was not used in the context of whether you can use it to offset all your daily charging, for example.

Why would they need that line there? Because when the Leaf came out, Nissan had it written in their user manual not to quick charge their car more than once per day. So when using a supercharger on a roadtrip, such a policy obviously would be run counter to the practicality of the system (you are very likely to supercharge more than once on a road trip).

That is your interpretation of it. I am not convinced that is their whole intent there.

Anyway, it is not necessarily at all how a reasonable layman would interpret it. If Tesla meant to discuss battery technicalities only, they should have said so.