Tesla Model 3 vs Model S comparison slides

[AnxietyRanger]

Sales and marketing is frequently tip toeing on the razor's edge between "perspective" and "unethical".

Ain't that the truth...

New unlimited lifetime supercharger promotion

 

[stopcrazypp]

Then we must agree to disagree, I guess. It is one thing to stick to published specs, but would be quite another to publish an anti-sell comparison sheet based on misleading specs.

For me upselling Model S based on false Model 3 information would be unethical. After all, this is a new summary leaflet, released 1.5 months before expected Model 3 launch, not just sales people referring to a March 2016 event. So putting info on this that the company knows is false would be unethical as this is obviously done to push Q2 sales and early Q3 is expected to bring more Model 3 info...

If someone buys a base Model S thinking it has 40+ more range, no glass or panoramic roof and better acceleration than a Model 3... and then Model 3 actually were to launch with Model S comparable range, glass roof(s) and better acceleration a couple of weeks later... think of how that looks to that person?

So I am hoping these are accurate reflections of the best at launch. That is the only reasonable expectation IMO.

But it's not false even if it is more than 215. It says "215+" not only "215" or even "~215".

 

[AnxietyRanger]

But it's not false even if it is more than 215. It says "215+" not only "215".

Misleading is not about false data only, it is about presentation of data in a way that reasonably can be expected to mislead. The 215+ miles is posted next to Model S ranges on a sheet obviously meant to list the lesser merits of Model 3.

Thus, a reasonable interpretation of Model 3 having "215+ miles" vs. Model S having "249-335 miles" is that Model 3 has a much lesser range. The reasonable interpretation is not that Model 3 can have anything above 215 miles (even 400 miles). It is also likely that sales people going through this verbally would use such numbers as shorthand without qualifiers, so you'll hear 215 miles thrown out there...

IMO, Model 3 range better be way below 249 miles on launch, for this not to be misleading. I would say even a Bolt range of 238 miles would be pushing the comparison. If Model 3 range is a little over 215 then that would not be misleading IMO, it would be OK.

We shall see. Tesla has IMO done no wrong yet on this, if Model 3 really launches with these specs and nothing better.

 

[mmd]

So is Model 3 still the best car one can buy for $35k? During the launch event, Elon said @11:45 min mark:

And I want to emphasize..that. even if you buy no options at all, this will still be an amazing car. You will not be able to buy a better car for $35k or even close, even if you get no options.

I wonder if Tesla has set the expectations too high with such comments.

 

[MXWing]

I'll be ticked if these are accurate specs for the launch model, which I have been planning to buy since placing my early morning 3/31/16 reservation! I mean, this makes the 3 look like a Tesla Civic.

I can't afford an entry-level S, and it's starting to seem like Elon is a few more underwhelming leaks away from anti-selling me right into a loaded Civic or even mid-priced BMW 3. It just seems like those cars will offer more bang for the buck than what the Model 3 is shaping up to be, based on leaks.

Let's not get too crazy here.. that Tesla "Civic" is still going to be at the next traffic light before you even consider moving.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So is Model 3 still the best car one can buy for $35k? During the launch event, Elon said @11:45 min mark:

I wonder if Tesla has set the expectations too high with such comments.

Well you can't buy a new Model S for $35k. It may very well be the best car for $35k, doesn't mean it'll be better than the Model S. That's pretty much the point it seems.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Misleading is not about false data only, it is about presentation of data in a way that reasonably can be expected to mislead. The 215+ miles is posted next to Model S ranges on a sheet obviously meant to list the lesser merits of Model 3.

Thus, a reasonable interpretation of Model 3 having "215+ miles" vs. Model S having "249-335 miles" is that Model 3 has a much lesser range. The reasonable interpretation is not that Model 3 can have anything above 215 miles (even 400 miles). It is also likely that sales people going through this verbally would use such numbers as shorthand without qualifiers, so you'll hear 215 miles thrown out there...

IMO, Model 3 range better be way below 249 miles on launch, for this not to be misleading. I would say even a Bolt range of 238 miles would be pushing the comparison. If Model 3 range is a little over 215 then that would not be misleading IMO, it would be OK.

We shall see. Tesla has IMO done no wrong yet on this, if Model 3 really launches with these specs and nothing better.

Well if they don't want to leak the actual range number until the unveiling (for good reason; GM did the same thing, kept saying 200+ until the last minute), they are pretty limited in what they can write on that line. 215+ is the fairest number they can put.

Of course if you always operate under the assumption Tesla is being intentionally misleading by default, then the viewpoint is different.

 

[nikeykid]

why is everyone comparing this to a $35k BMW or Benz? m3 is still eligible for the federal tax credit so as far as I'm concerned this is really a $28k car. and all this anti-selling makes me want the m3 even more, its not working elon.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Well if they don't want to leak the actual range number until the unveiling (for good reason; GM did the same thing kept saying 200+ until the last minute), they are pretty limited in what they can write on that line. 215+ is the fairest number they can put.

Of course if you always operate under the assumption Tesla is being intentionally misleading, then the viewpoint is different.

I don't see how my assumptions would change it whether or not this is misleading. What Model 3 launches with will determine of this upselling is misleading or not. It is simply based on whether or not the recipients of this sales pitch are misled or not. If someone buys a Q2 Model S based on this comparison, then that comparison better be accurate enough so that they are not misled to making a decision based on false data. Very simple, really.

I'm actually giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt on this one. Elon just tweeting them starting with the simplest Model 3, perhaps they actually will launch a metal roofed, 5.6 sec, slightly over 215 miles range version come July with bare minimum of options available. If so, this comparison on this upsell sheet is perfectly fair in my books. Pushing it in places, sure, but if that's the launch car at least, then OK.

 

[MXWing]

why is everyone comparing this to a $35k BMW or Benz? m3 is still eligible for the federal tax credit so as far as I'm concerned this is really a $28k car. and all this anti-selling makes me want the m3 even more, its not working elon.

Which BMW, Benz or Volvo has a NVIDIA PX2 drive unit in it again as well as a nation wide DC supercharging network? Let me know so I can appropriately cross shop.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don't see how my assumptions would change it whether or not this is misleading. What Model 3 launches with will determine of this upselling is misleading or not. It is simply based on whether or not the recipients of this sales pitch are misled or not. If someone buys a Q2 Model S based on this comparison, then that comparison better be accurate enough so that they are not misled to making a decision based on false data. Very simple, really.

I'm actually giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt on this one. Elon just tweeting them starting with the simplest Model 3, perhaps they actually will launch a metal roofed, 5.6 sec, slightly over 215 miles range version come July with bare minimum of options available. If so, this comparison on this upsell sheet is perfectly fair in my books. Pushing it in places, sure, but if that's the launch car at least, then OK.

There's a difference between intentionally misleading and some people being misled (which can happen unintentionally: see HUD discussion). And again, at least for the purposes of the 215+ number, it's not false data. There's already hints the base Model 3 will have more than the Bolt's range (Elon tweeted alluding to that).

If the Model 3 launches with more than 215 or even 238, I don't find that misleading at all based on the spec sheet and I don't think a majority of people considering a Model 3 will find it misleading either. I guess let's agree to disagree on this point.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

There's a difference between intentionally misleading and some people being misled (which can happen unintentionally: see HUD discussion). And again, at least for the purposes of the 215+ number, it's not false data. There's already hints the base Model 3 will have more than the Bolt's range (Elon tweeted alluding to that).

If the Model 3 launches with more than 215 or even 238, I don't find that misleading at all based on the spec sheet and I don't think a majority of people considering a Model 3 will find it misleading either. I guess let's agree to disagree on this point.

I guess you are assuming, then, that Model 3 will launch with better specs than this comparison sheet suggests? This comparison sheet is prepared by Tesla. A little over a month prior to the expected Model 3 launch. Tesla knows what the figures are and they chose to made this comparison sheet. If it is misleading, it is on Tesla.

That said, I guess a range of 238 miles could still fly if everything else is according to this sheet. Maybe I'd just squeeze that into a reasonable interpretation of 215+ miles. It is still clearly short of what Model S offers.

But if Tesla launches a 240+ mile, under 5.5 second, glass roofed Model 3 come July, then definitely this would have been misleading, as a buyer buying a Model S would have been misled into thinking these things are clearly superior on the Model S based on this comparison sheet.

 

[MXWing]

The premium features box is not intuitive at all.
Is it saying the S has the HEPA filter standard? Or is it possible to get it via the PUP?

Can the 3 get the HEPA filter through a PUP upgrade or not at all?

It would also be sillly to omit that the 3 has a glass roof if it is completely obvious if it does. I would hate to be the salesperson to say:

Well yeah it does but we don't mention it because of the anti selling campaign that is going on.

And why wouldn't the 3 offer premium wheel options? It's a profit center that can add thousands to the car price?

Something is off for sure.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Something is off for sure.

It lists both standard and optional features for Model S... so it is possibilities, not standard features.

Regarding the roof, the only non-misleading/not-dishonest interpretation is Model 3 ships with a metal roof only. Everything else would be leading a Q2 Model S buyer astray. Basically Model 3 can not have a glass roof option at least on launch for that part not to be misleading...

 

[MXWing]

It lists both standard and optional features for Model S... so it is possibilities, not standard features.'

Regarding the roof, the only non-misleading/not-dishonest interpretation is Model 3 ships with a metal roof only. Everything else would be leading a Q2 Model S buyer astray. Basically Model 3 can not have a glass roof option at least on launch for that part not to be misleading...

I could be not up to date on Model 3 developments but I thought all glass roof was standard? Has this been 100 percent confirmed / denied?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I could be not up to date on Model 3 developments but I thought all glass roof was standard? Has this been 100 percent confirmed / denied?

That would have been my expectation as well before these slides appeared.

But listing Glass Roof as well as Panoramic Roof as differentiators / premium features of Model S can only be interpreted - if we assume Tesla is not misleading - as such not appearing on Model 3 at least on launch.

 

[MXWing]

That would have been my expectation as well before these slides appeared.

But listing Glass Roof as well as Panoramic Roof as differentiators / premium features of Model S can only be interpreted - if we assume Tesla is not misleading - as such not appearing on Model 3 at least on launch.

So I think all the RC M3s have glass roofs so that rules out metal roof only?

Everything else I read about streamlining, easier for robots to work on etc etc really pushes the standard all glass roof theory.

If the slide was meant as a hit piece against the 3, they could have come up with other things.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

So I think all the RC M3s have glass roofs so that rules out metal roof only?

Everything else I read about streamlining, easier for robots to work on etc etc really pushes the standard all glass roof theory.

If the slide was meant as a hit piece against the 3, they could have come up with other things.

I'm only stating what is needed for Tesla not to be misleading on the roof. A metal-only roof at launch would seem necessary, everything else seems to be misleading.

If Tesla chose to mislead, all bets are off of course.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A good quote from Electrek comments:

But I do not like what Tesla dishonest to Model 3 comparison, unspoken the much better drag coefficient of 0.21, and also much advance of 2170 cell pack. These are two keys you won't get from S right now. Maybe for next year S default.

Indeed. None of this mentioned by Tesla, of course, because the idea here is not accuracy but anti-selling Model 3 and upselling Model S.

Tesla says both Model S/X and Model are based on "fourth version of Tesla technology", but IMO given the importance of the new battery cell, that already in itself is misleading. Model 3 is the fifth version at least, while current Model S/X is the fourth.

 

[Candleflame]

why is everyone comparing this to a $35k BMW or Benz? m3 is still eligible for the federal tax credit so as far as I'm concerned this is really a $28k car. and all this anti-selling makes me want the m3 even more, its not working elon.

maybe in the usa for initial buyers. But you can be sure that there wont be fancy tax credits abroad and the base price will be ~45-50k USD.