IMHO battery losses and other things are not included in Wh/mi figures. Anyone who trusts the trip meter thinks their consumption is much better than it really is, not even including vampire drain between drives.
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IMHO battery losses and other things are not included in Wh/mi figures. Anyone who trusts the trip meter thinks their consumption is much better than it really is, not even including vampire drain between drives.
@Dennis87 - Would be interesting to see the 85D numbers again at 2,000 km on the odo.
Driving faster means you are pulling higher amounts of current at a greater voltage drop in the pack. This can affect capacity measurements.
Driving faster means you are pulling higher amounts of current at a greater voltage drop in the pack. This can affect capacity measurements.
MarcG
Active Member
Possibly, except the latter part (vampire drain between drives) doesn't apply for a single trip that starts at 100% SoC and ends at 0%.
I was assuming the BMS can handle these situations to measure capacity, but I could be wrong. You would think Tesla's developers have enough knowledge to take varying current draws into account.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think he is trying to say that the capacity of a battery varies depending on how much power you draw. For example, if you do a test where a battery is fully discharged in 20 hours vs a test that discharges it in 1 hour, you will measure significantly different capacity. This is because of internal resistance of the battery. At higher power draw you get less apparent capacity because you lose it to heat via internal resistance.
First rulings done in Norways consumer disputes commision it seems. Tesla must pay 50000NOK(~6000USD) to the owners in these rulings as far as I can see. Tesla now has 4weeks to decide if they want to continue by draggin this into the courts or end it by paying the owners according to the ruling.
This includes my own case which I brought forward to the disputes commision. Link below to a similar case. I believe 13owners went this route.
http://innsyn.e-kommune.no/innsyn_f...=2016013278&dokid=233333&versjon=1&variant=P&
Still no word on the ones that actually sued Tesla. That is rumoured to be more than 200owners still waiting for Tesla to make their move. But the ruling from the consumer disputes commision will of course wheigh heavily in advantage of the owners...
This includes my own case which I brought forward to the disputes commision. Link below to a similar case. I believe 13owners went this route.
http://innsyn.e-kommune.no/innsyn_f...=2016013278&dokid=233333&versjon=1&variant=P&
Still no word on the ones that actually sued Tesla. That is rumoured to be more than 200owners still waiting for Tesla to make their move. But the ruling from the consumer disputes commision will of course wheigh heavily in advantage of the owners...
Seems like a reasonable judgment. Have you heard anything in Norway about the P90Dl not being able to hit 10.9 quarter mile?
No nothing on the P90DL, but the quarter mile isnt something that many people here really care about in the first place. I dont think there even is a dedicated dragstrip here. Old airstrips are used, but not by regular people.
Horsepower and 0-100 are the numbers we care about here. Smart or not can be discussed, but that is the fact
So this whole thing is not about am I getting the range Tesla promised, but rather my tool is longer than yours?
I really wish someone sue the disk/USB/Smart media manufacturers on not giving all the 16 GB they promised me on the package. It clearly says 16 GB, but when I shove it in the computer says 15.2 GB available space.
I really wish someone sue the disk/USB/Smart media manufacturers on not giving all the 16 GB they promised me on the package. It clearly says 16 GB, but when I shove it in the computer says 15.2 GB available space.
That is hardly the proper analogy.
The disk space lawsuits (which were settled by WD back in 2006) were a consistency problem with naming due to some companies using binary naming and some companies using decimal naming. Binary naming was favored by Microsoft and decimal name favored by disk manufacturers.. which they still are.
Logically, a KILObyte would be 1,000 bytes, right? Microsoft instead decided that it would be 2^10.. 1,024 bytes instead... and that has been the standard ever since.
A true 16GB disk according to Microsoft (and everyone else) would be 17,179,869,184 bytes..
In binary that is 16GB, in decimal that is 17.179GB
A true 16GB disk according to storage manufacturers would be 16,000,000,000 bytes.
In decimal that would be 16GB, in binary that would be around 14.9GB
Now, with the range it is not a case of binary vs decimal, nor is it a case of the anti-brick buffer, as the 60 kWh pack is 61.6kWh.. logically the 85kWh pack should have been slightly higher to be consistent, but it appears someone in marketing decided that saying 85 was better than the 80 it should have been.
However, the packs all had corresponding EPA estimates, so this is just a case of mistaken marketing, rather than malice.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The paper actually says there were two opinions. One suggested 50000NOK, the other 20000NOK (~$2400USD), but the 50000NOK decision got the majority vote. I believe it also mentions the claimant suggesting doing a free Ludicrous upgrade as compensation, but the commission didn't agree because the upgrade wouldn't have addressed the issue anyways and would have provide acceleration beyond originally advertised. Additionally the claimant suggested the difference between a P85D and 85D as compensation, and the commission also disagreed.
Here's Tesla's statement on it that indicates they might appeal.
Tesla asked to pay ~$6,000 to Model S P85D owners in Norway for misleading power output
Of course it largely depends on if it needs to reach the courts to appeal or if it can be handled by normal staff. The previous statements to the Consumer commission were written by regular staff. However, if they need a lawyer, then it may not make as much sense for Tesla to drag it out because of lawyer fees.
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Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
I like how the commission quickly dismissed the notion of an upgrade to Ludicrous since that would help very little with what is being complained about: a seeming lack of over 240 hp. Sure, Ludicrous would make the car noticeably quicker, but would only add a small number of measurable horse powers.
IMO that kind of shows how irrelevant the hp issue is. But that just my opinion, and I'll try to stay humble. I don't have any skin in the game and might feel differently if I had.
IMO that kind of shows how irrelevant the hp issue is. But that just my opinion, and I'll try to stay humble. I don't have any skin in the game and might feel differently if I had.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I think what is quite relevant is that the commission concluded that Tesla had misled its customers, and that the customers should be compensated to the tune of approximately $6000 US. That seems pretty black and white.
It's probably better to discuss this here:
Tesla may be forced to compensate owners of P85D in Norway
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L
Tesla may be forced to compensate owners of P85D in Norway
Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Yes that too. But that was kind of obvious, the thing that I pointed to (this being an issue of only missing horse powers and not otherwise missing performance) seemed less obvious to me, but also interesting.
With hard disks, manufacturers have used the unformatted capacity for years. Once you format it, you have about 10% less capacity than what the manufacturer says. I believe there were lawsuits about it, but it's still reported that way. It's the same problem with USB memory sticks.
And the 1000 bytes vs 1024 bytes thing has also been an industry standard thing from back before Microsoft was a blip on anyone's radar. The size of any memory or disk is going to be in the form of 2 to some power. Since the difference between 1000 and 1024 is only 2.4% it's been mostly interchangeable to use 1K as equals either 1000 or 1024. I learned that back in high school in the early 1980s.
Please remember that the rulings here are based on the individual claims. My claim was similar, but with lower amounts. Otherwise your comments are correct.
The ruling frmo the commision is legally binding to both parties unless Tesla brings it to the courts. Tesla has actually used hired lawyers in dealing with the commision and still got the ruling against them. They have used a very reputable norwegian lawfirm here just so that is clear.
Next step is eiher court-case or paying.
In my claim I actually liste lud-upgrade as one option more or less as an easy "out" for Tesla. For me the admittance of wrongdoing in such a case would be more than enough for me. I am perfectly aware that it comes nowhere close to the HP-numbers, but at least it brings it close or equal to the original acceleration-numbers. And those numbers are the most relevant for me personally.
The sad thing in these rulings is that they still state that the acceleration is as promised solely based on Teslas claims. They still site the motortrend numbers for 0-60mph _with_ roll-out as the truth for real 0-100kph. I believe the owners suing tesla here will easily disprove this claim adding to the issue for Tesla. 3 independant lawyers have indeed found wrongdoing in terms of the HP-numbers. In court I cannot believe the accelleration-claims would also be corrected.
The issue is indeed "silly" and mostly irellevant. I love my car, I love how it performs. I just hate the way Tesla marketed it. With honest marketing I would have been driving a 85D instead today(at a cost slightly less due to forex due to waiting for nextgen seats).
No matter what the outcome here I believe Tesla has now been taught a lesson that in countries like Norway you cannot cherry-pick your marketing numbers like this without issues.. That in itself makes me happy
PS!. This story is in at least 3major norwegian newspapers online-editions today...
I have no sympathy for Tesla on the issue of battery pack size. Every company misleads - except KIA - on the pack size, due to the limits the technology imposes on the bottom and top end. If only X kWh is available to me then, for all practical purposes that is my pack size. it doesn't matter if the actual capacity is X+Y.
Although on the flip side you could argue, what is really relevant is the EPA range and all other numbers are just technicalities. A car with a packsize of 100 kWh and a range of 250 miles is the same from a consumer perspective as the one with 80 kWh and 250 miles range.
Although on the flip side you could argue, what is really relevant is the EPA range and all other numbers are just technicalities. A car with a packsize of 100 kWh and a range of 250 miles is the same from a consumer perspective as the one with 80 kWh and 250 miles range.
True. Most people don't ask about how big the gas tank is when they are buying a car. The range/mileage is the only thing consumers care about in the end.
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