FSD 12.3 today - utter failure!

[Dewg]

Swap it to manual mode on the fly. QED.

View attachment 1044129View attachment 1044130


You’d have to post a picture and video showing sustained speed and the detected speed. 38mph should be the max. In general it is 50% over.

You’d have to use the same vehicle. I’ve never noticed any difference when swapping on the fly.



It works the same way. You just can’t see the limit. Swap to manual mode on the fly without disengaging. It’ll have the same set speed offset and the behavior won’t change. A different set speed offset invalidates the comparison. Neither mode will go faster than the speed offset limit and (this is an unrelated point) in extreme cases won’t even go the set speed offset limit if you accelerate up to it. (For example 67 or 70 in a 45 it will not maintain in either mode; it’ll drop back to 55-60 regardless of how high you dial the speed up, depending on the road characteristics.)

Sorry ewood, but I must agree with Alan. I even helped him validate offsets to confirm.

I have personally never experienced excessive speeding with v12 yet. My car will keep up with the flow of traffic around me on ASSO, and have had it go 55 in a 45 due to traffic flow, but never in light or no traffic. In residential 25mph streets, the fastest it's ever gone was 28 when there was another car behind me. Otherwise it does 22-25 or so.

 

[TS.42]

Today on a 300 mile jog, the car tried to suddenly veer off of a 75MPH highway into a left turning lane that allows traffic to cross over to gas stations etc. Each time I came up on one of these left turns and I was in the left lane the car veered right into it at 75! The place I was going was still 80 miles ahead with zero turns required! It scared the hell out of me. I am so disappointed after I sat out the last year waiting for progress. It was worse in so many ways and only better in one or two scenarios I tested.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Today on a 300 mile jog, the car tried to suddenly veer off of a 75MPH highway into a left turning lane that allows traffic to cross over to gas stations etc. Each time I came up on one of these left turns and I was in the left lane the car veered right into it at 75! The place I was going was still 80 miles ahead with zero turns required! It scared the hell out of me. I am so disappointed after I sat out the last year waiting for progress. It was worse in so many ways and only better in one or two scenarios I tested.

This is a standard feature of v11. Been this way for a year or so. So no surprise you are seeing this on v11 still on a divided highway probably being classified as limited access.

Of course v12 might do it too.

 

[saj070]

Some people drive that close normally. It's far from being dangerous.
There's a fair number of people who have complained that FSD 11 and early drive in the middle and not near the right, and how unsafe that is.

Hopefully in a release or two, it will get back into the middle.

Here the video what I am talking about

https://imgur.com/a/a6ZeETB

 

[ewoodrick]

Here the video what I am talking about

What's the problem keeping the most distance from surrounding traffic?
I couldn't really see how far away the car was from the line. But it actually looked like it was a similar distance to the car in front.

It's not dangerous. I want it to go back to the middle, but it isn't dangerous, it's an empty turn land and I bet you if the car sees someone in it, the car will move right.

 

[ewoodrick]

Sorry ewood, but I must agree with Alan. I even helped him validate offsets to confirm.

I have personally never experienced excessive speeding with v12 yet. My car will keep up with the flow of traffic around me on ASSO, and have had it go 55 in a 45 due to traffic flow, but never in light or no traffic. In residential 25mph streets, the fastest it's ever gone was 28 when there was another car behind me. Otherwise it does 22-25 or so.

Who said excessive speeding? Not me.
With automatic speed turned off, the car will go the speed of the limit plus offset, unless there is something in front or a curve or other obstruction.

And this "it sets it to 50%+ and then 30%+" stuff is completely bogus (and changing). Because on a 55mph road, why would it go slower on than off?

@AlanSubie4Life If you want to stick with your assumption, then why and how does it

"This considers factors like road type, traffic flow, environmental conditions, speed limit and the selected Full Self-Driving (Supervised) Profile setting (Chill, Average, or Assertive)" ?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

With automatic speed turned off, the car will go the speed of the limit plus offset, unless there is something in front or a curve or other obstruction.

This is most certainly FALSE (excluding v11 areas). It's basically my entire point. This is the key thing that for some reason is not understood (but easily verified!).

Manual mode behaves essentially the same as automatic set speed offset mode. Manual mode "considers factors like road type, traffic flow, environmental conditions, speed limit..."

Turns out that some people do not like the result.

And this "it sets it to 50%+ and then 30%+" stuff is completely bogus (and changing). Because on a 55mph road, why would it go slower on than off?

You'd have to try the same vehicle. On the fly, change the mode, back and forth.

As you know, the speed is sensitive to all sorts of factors in both modes, so it would be really hard to compare results on two different drives with different vehicles around you, etc.

@AlanSubie4Life If you want to stick with your assumption, then why and how does it

I've posted my evidence. Up to you to post yours now.

I've got a stretch near my house that my wife's car goes 55 with it off,

Do us all a favor: do an experiment with Manual mode with this car, where it is going 55. Increase the set speed offset to 30% over the limit. How fast does the car go?

 

[Georgesb2]

It's been over a month now and nearing a month and a half. I changed my mind about paying for one more month. I don't feel I've given it enough time. But a month at a time and at $99 worth continuing the experiment. So I did continue. The software has been updated twice.

I'll try to summarize and update my experience after all this time.

I still get egregious errors with various categories of normal driving situations.

U turns, normal ones, necessary here.
A few times FSD stopped the car in the left / passing / high speed lane instead of moving into the turn around area in the median for the U turn. I have to step on the gas to get the car off the road. U turns, which are necessary here are done very, very poorly, erratically, sometimes not at all. Occasionally it does it but poorly. Sometimes it doesn't get over into the U turn lane, I put on the directional. It moves over and I never know what it will do. When it does make the turn and only after prompted by a bump to the pedal, it doesn't seem to know that the rear end hangs out in the passing lane. I have to bump the pedal more. Sometimes the car doesn't even bother to get over to the left lane of this highway to make the turn. I often have to use the directional to move it over, to prepare for the U turn. The U turn is in the navigational plan and on screen in every case.

Traffic lights.
Many times it acted very confused about light changes from green to yellow. Often it stopped properly. Sometimes it 'slammed' on the brakes. Often it does a stutter, brake and slow but then change mind and go. But once it went through a red light and stopped in the middle of the intersection. In the middle of the intersection, stopped, with cars now coming at me, the car gave up, alarmed and gave the driving back to me!

Rarely but at times it drives dangerously at cars.
One or two times it accelerated rapidly when I knew the traffic ahead was stopped at a light. Then it didn't slow down, I thought we'd crash, so I took over.

Cutting corners.
When turning it cuts corners as a normality for current FSD.
Often it's not an issue. But sometimes it takes me and the car into harms way.
More than once, actually regularly it sends me into a hole at the edge of the road. I lost the tire from one of these incidents. Now I'm buying a new set of tires.
Another time it cut the corner so sharply we were going to hit a rollaway trash container. I took over to avoid wiping out the side of the car.
In each case, damage to the car was likely or actually occurred.

Turning off the highway to a small side street.
It handles this poorly. I often turn on the turn signal earlier so that traffic in the 60 MPH roadway has more time to see that I'm turning. The car takes it's sweet old time. It seems totally oblivious to the dangers.

Lane changes, never know what I'm going to get.
Sometimes it turns on the directional to change lanes, begins to move, then changes its mind and moves back!
Often times it turns on the directions to change lanes, begins to move, then moves back, then finally changes lanes. Weird!

Inability to "look far ahead and predict".
Consistently FSD seems unable to do what I do normally. It cannot seem to observe and predict traffic flow, except for "close in". Humans can watch traffic and predict dangers, changes in flow, etc. FSD falls far short in this regard. For example, it seems to stay in a lane even though traffic is flowing freely in other lanes. I realized that I normally glance quite far ahead to try to understand and predict probabilities. FSD doesn't seem to do this at all.

Strangely as this may sound.
I'm getting "used to" FSD. And overall I want to have it. It's like a misbehave partner. When she's good, she's very good, but when she's bad she's terribly awfully bad.

It often sees better than I can see. In very complex driving situations I often feel safer by having a "second expert opinion" with much better eyesight and much better perspectives than I have. It's made many amazing driving decisions.

Each drive, is always somewhat different.
It's more human than human at times, and sometimes acts "emotional".

My wife borrowed my car because she had to go over an hour away from here and wouldn't get home till after dark. The car "drove her home" in the pitched darkness and through pouring rain. My wife couldn't do it but the car did. If it weren't for that pothole...

I am frankly surprised that the famous testers on YouTube don't see any of the serious errors I am seeing here. This makes me think that localities are not handled with the same level of proficiency.

This is interesting, to say the least.

 

[DrChaos]

It's been over a month now and nearing a month and a half. I changed my mind about paying for one more month. I don't feel I've given it enough time. But a month at a time and at $99 worth continuing the experiment. So I did continue. The software has been updated twice.

I'll try to summarize and update my experience after all this time.

I still get egregious errors with various categories of normal driving situations.

U turns, normal ones, necessary here.
A few times FSD stopped the car in the left / passing / high speed lane instead of moving into the turn around area in the median for the U turn.

What situation is this? When do you have a "U turn" next to a high speed lane? Is this a divided controlled access road?

TBH I never seen something like this driving in California in a freeway. Nearly all U-turns on roads would generally avoid the median and there'd be a dedicated left/u turn lane and light with arrow.

I am frankly surprised that the famous testers on YouTube don't see any of the serious errors I am seeing here. This makes me think that localities are not handled with the same level of proficiency.

Yes I think there is a significant amount of over concentration to California as that's where there's the most training data by far.

It works quite well for me most of the time, occasional lane choice problems but never something that's a safety problem, more like not able to get to the proper exit when there is significant traffic from stop and go up to mid 30s speeds, the cases where humans know intuitively when they need to be aggressive and when they need to be timid.

 

[Georgesb2]

What situation is this? When do you have a "U turn" next to a high speed lane? Is this a divided controlled access road?

TBH I never seen something like this driving in California in a freeway. Nearly all U-turns on roads would generally avoid the median and there'd be a dedicated left/u turn lane and light with arrow.



Yes I think there is a significant amount of over concentration to California as that's where there's the most training data by far.

It works quite well for me most of the time, occasional lane choice problems but never something that's a safety problem, more like not able to get to the proper exit when there is significant traffic from stop and go up to mid 30s speeds, the cases where humans know intuitively when they need to be aggressive and when they need to be timid.

The situation.
Divided highway.
No gradual exit to the U turn.

US 19/98 crystal river Florida.

 

[DrChaos]

The situation.
Divided highway.
No gradual exit to the U turn.

US 19/98 crystal river Florida.

Yes, I saw that on Google Street View.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

No, this doesn't seem to be designed frequently in California roads often, presumably because people slowing down to u-turn could block fast moving cars behind them. There would be a dedicated and marked left turn lane out of traffic. The car would get into the left turn lane and stop and then decide when and where to go.

Do you know if that is operating the V11 'highway stack' or the V12 'city stack'? If you have automatic speed limit and go to "AUTO" only in city streets turned on, then you can see which one it is whether there is a numerical speed limit (highway model) or not (city model).

The v11 is rule-based driving policy and heavily "lane focused" and the V12 is the one trained by recording human drivers.

I suspect that fixing this is going to require a single stack V12 unified, and more training data. Lack of unification is probably because using human training data on freeway results in too unstable speed control, because humans don't maintain a high level of speed control on their own but people using a cruise control type of product would expect that. They might have to synthesize data or massage training data to be more like the desired behavior---and then include training for all the exit situations including rarer ones like you found.