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Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Matias: I'm not sure I understand... The BMW 7-Series and 5-Series costs more, but the BMW 3-Series is similar... The AUDI A8 and A7 cost more... But the A4 and A6 are similar...
green1
Active Member
While your reasoning is right on for the rest of your post, this part isn't quite right, the reason that the longer range EVs are rated with a worse MPGe rating is not because the EPA is biased towards low performance vehicles, it's because the extra range comes at the cost of a heavier battery pack, which makes the vehicle less efficient simply because it has to lug around the extra weight.
On an EV having available performance doesn't cost anything, but using it does (as you correctly noted) but if you need a heavier motor to get that performance, it will have a slight impact on efficiency due to the added weight alone. That said, a bit of extra weight doesn't make all that much difference, but a lot of extra weight (as in a large battery pack) does.
Because Elon had said so. He has told us that Model 3 will not be a smaller version of the Model S, and that they will not have a "family resemblances" like the cars from Audi and BMW. If you are expecting a "mini Model S" I'm afraid you are in for an disappointment.
JB Straubel has been quoted as the battery being less than 1/4 of the price for most Model S, and that's putting the pricing under $300/kWh. 60 x $300 = $18,000. The base Model 3's target is $35,000 less than the base Model S60. Battery alone won't get them there.
Tesla's aim for Model 3 is to make an affordable, compelling car. The performance is required to sell the Model S, which is $70k+. But the Model S60's performance numbers are really nothing special at its price point. At the Model 3's base target is $35k or less and at that price point they would not need 5s-6s performance to sell cars. It might be more important in the USA, but Tesla's building cars for the world. In Europe the majority of 3 Series sold are diesels and the ten-a-penny base 3-Series diesels only do 0-60 in around 7s. Elon Musk has remarked in an interview, specifically referring to other markets, that the base 3 Series doesn't have great performance.
If Tesla can be under $35k for a mid-size with 7s 0-60, which compared to the 320d has more instant and smoother performance, dramatically lower TCO, less maintenance, more cargo space and a more enjoyable ownership experience it's still going to be very compelling in the European market, and by avoiding a $5k forced premium for 5s-6s I think they'd reach be able to upsell a good chunk of the mainstream mid-size market. $5k is a huge difference in cost at the Model 3's target price, more than enough to lose sales, including to me.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
The only place I see the "☰" is here with a few posters. Emails I've received from people at Tesla refer to the Model 3 as (shocker) 'Model 3'. I find it funny that folks are going out of their way to do something that Tesla is not.
If you think it's about Tesla wanting to spell out 'SEX' now that they lost the Model E designation, the '3' makes more sense. Digits for letters, such as "S3X" is common with many tech folks, especially with things like passwords, etc.
Y0u c4n r34d m0st 4nyth1ng sp3ll3d th4t w4y. So can we stop with the annoying "☰"? It really messes up the search engine.
If you think it's about Tesla wanting to spell out 'SEX' now that they lost the Model E designation, the '3' makes more sense. Digits for letters, such as "S3X" is common with many tech folks, especially with things like passwords, etc.
Y0u c4n r34d m0st 4nyth1ng sp3ll3d th4t w4y. So can we stop with the annoying "☰"? It really messes up the search engine.
At the very least don't use "☰" like you have been. Use "≡" as it has better spacing top and bottom, and generally is more ascetically pleasing.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
And show me a customer communication where they've replaced the Tesla 'e' with that ^. They spell it 'Tesla', not 'T☰SLA' in emails. One is a logo. The other is not. (Besides, if you really believed that was how it was supposed to be spelled out, you would have been typing it out that way. But so far, no one has been spelling Tesla that way. Good luck searching for Model 3 info with that graphic in place of the 3.)
Just sayin.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Bonnie, not sure why you are not a fan of the ☰. I find it rather cool actually. Not a boring digit 3 like on a Mazda or something. As far as search engines are concerned, I think most articles will end up using the 3 anyway alongside a pic of the badge.
If at $40k, wonder what the Signature deposit - if there's going to be a signature line, that is - will be. I'm itching to put two deposits down, one for a Sig and one for a non-Sig. Will pick one when the pricing and options are eventually published.
If at $40k, wonder what the Signature deposit - if there's going to be a signature line, that is - will be. I'm itching to put two deposits down, one for a Sig and one for a non-Sig. Will pick one when the pricing and options are eventually published.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
There's a difference between text and a logo. And for some reason, people are insisting on inserting the logo where everyone else uses text. Including Tesla. Including those same people in other use cases. And it messes up searching on the forum.
I don't care if it's the logo. I'm just saying that if I'm talking about
green1
Active Member
It's not even a logo, it's a completely made up on this forum symbol that people decided to use that has no relation to anything that Tesla has committed to.... In fact from what Elon said, it sounds most likely to be model III, but even then, all the official communications are Model 3.
What I find amazing is that people who still call it model E (which it actually was officially called for a long time) get criticized on here, but people who call it some weird symbol that Tesla has never used get a pass. How's that make any sense?
What I find amazing is that people who still call it model E (which it actually was officially called for a long time) get criticized on here, but people who call it some weird symbol that Tesla has never used get a pass. How's that make any sense?
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Base Leaf is $30k.
There was a survey sometime back where they asked how much more would we pay for double the range. The "max" choice of the multi-select question was $5k. That is how I come up with $35k, 150 mile Leaf.
Yes, a fully optioned high level 150 mile Leaf will be > $40k. Model 3 fully optioned could be more than $70k.
I think part of the confusion here is the assumption that this level of performance in an electric car costs more. Where does this $5k for 1 sec boost in performance come from? The only places to save money would be the motor, the battery or the power electronics.
AFAIK the S uses the exact same motor from its S60 to its P+, so I doubt there is much savings to be had on the motor size or the different models would have different motors.
So the big cost between the models has to do with the battery size and power electronics. Since the Model 3 has already been stated to have a minimum range of 200 miles, we can expect the pack to be not much smaller than the S60. If the discharge rate of the battery has not improved we can expect that the battery can provide enough instantaneous power to match the S60 performance. (Ok if the battery pack ends up ~10% smaller, we'd see less power, but with a ~20% smaller car we'll call it a wash.) Smaller battery size and associated lower discharge rate is what hobbles many of the other EVs performance.
So the only question left is if there is significant cost savings in the power electronics to hobble the cars performance. This area is a bit of a mystery to me, what are the major changes here between an 85 and a P85? I don't know, but with the advancement rate of electronics coupled with buying in bulk, I doubt there will be much savings to be had over the power handling requirements of the S60.
High performance ability is just one of the many advantages to EV's, and unlike ICEs it doesn't have to cost a lot extra!
~Greg
