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200 kWh Roadster Pack: How is Tesla Pulling This Off?

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It would be wonderful if Tesla made the Miata of BEV sports cars. Or perhaps the Datsun 240z?

But now that Elon is burdened with his latest Earning Package I wonder. Plus cars are so fast now days and getting so complex can we have small light simple fun to drive cars? Perhaps it is just a past era. But we still have bikes. So I hope kids can still find ways of affordable adventure for modern era road trips. But electrics are so much simpler. Interesting times. My crystal ball is cloudy.
 
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Still no clue how they will get 200kWh into the Roadster

The Model 3 LR has a pack density of 150wh/kg

Scale up to 200kWh and that's over 1300kg of batteries

Which is insanity for a supercars

Even a 30% improvement over Model 3 is still 1000kg

Can't really be more than 500kg pack weight for handling/power to weight ratio

Crazy how little progress has been made with battery density when you think about it

Roadster 2008 117wh/kg = (53kWh, 450kg)

Model 3 2017 150wh/kg ( 75kWh, 500kg )

Roadster 2020 200wh/kg ( 200kWh, 1000kg)?

Hypercars do weigh more. The Bugatti is 2000 kg.
 
It would be wonderful if Tesla made the Miata of BEV sports cars. Or perhaps the Datsun 240z?

But now that Elon is burdened with his latest Earning Package I wonder. Plus cars are so fast now days and getting so complex can we have small light simple fun to drive cars? Perhaps it is just a past era. But we still have bikes. So I hope kids can still find ways of affordable adventure for modern era road trips. But electrics are so much simpler. Interesting times. My crystal ball is cloudy.

For the foreseeable future, you're not going to have any BEVs that are light. Batteries are heavy. But you can still get a used Old Roadster that is simple and very fun to drive. Mine is still available. :D See my thread in the Teslas For Sale forum.
 
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For the foreseeable future, you're not going to have any BEVs that are light

1000Kg convertible EV looks like this -> ;-) !!!
smart-fortwo-cabriolet-ed-000-low-res.jpeg
 
You can't directly compare car weight of Roadster with ICE cars because of its low center of gravity. Lateral weight is bad for handling but vertical weight is actually good. Just think air wings if you don't see it. The weight of battery pack that sits low contributes more to vertical weight than to lateral weight. 4,000lb may not be all that bad not to mention there are plenty of 4.000 lb supercars in the world.
 
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You can't directly compare car weight of Roadster with ICE cars because of its low center of gravity. Lateral weight is bad for handling but vertical weight is actually good. Just think air wings if you don't see it. The weight of battery pack that sits low contributes more to vertical weight than to lateral weight. 4,000lb may not be all that bad not to mention there are plenty of 4.000 lb supercars in the world.

Are you taking about mass vs down force? Spoilers/ wings add down force but do not change the mass of the car appreciably. Any additional mass needs to be reacted against for cornering (and tire grip is inversely related to loading). The low CG reduces roll/ weight shift during maneuvers, but lighter is still better.
 
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The Model 3 has a 310 mile range on a 75Kwh battery. It would have a 620 mile range on a 150Kwh battery pack(maybe slightly less due to increased weight). The new Roadster should have less drag than a Model 3. Therefore, it is conceivable to get 620 mile range out of a 150Kwh or even smaller battery. Also, doing a “series parallel “ system could have an operational voltage of 800v. That results in smaller gauge wiring, with less weight. It is quite possible, with today’s technology to get the roadster into the 3500 to 4000 lb area.
 
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800v would also really help reduce Back EMF on the motors.
it would definitely help top RPM power output. It would also require a new higher voltage inverter/ drive electronics. Given the dual rear motor setup, I'm guessing the gearing is 2x steeper which will also help in terms of BEMF (lower motor speed at the same road speed) and align with the reduction in torque each half axle can put out..
 
Here’s my educated guess.
Remember when Mercedes bought a Model 3 and shipped it home to dismantle and reverse engineer/what ever.
There was a press release from Benz stating they were amazed at its design and simplicity, well I remember right after that Franz made a statement something about “really, they are amazed at its design, well man that was technology from two years ago and wait till they see what we have now”.
I believe Tesla is holding out on battery and motor designs that will be able to give the specifications both for the roadster and semi.
Let’s not forget the company in Israel that a year ago said they had a process and materials to charge at a extreme rate without battery degradation and Elon was in Israel just recently.

Elon has to be Elon and be boysterois to rile up the crowd but I believe he has learned to throttle back and not give away the keys to his success.
 
You can't directly compare car weight of Roadster with ICE cars because of its low center of gravity. Lateral weight is bad for handling but vertical weight is actually good. Just think air wings if you don't see it. The weight of battery pack that sits low contributes more to vertical weight than to lateral weight. 4,000lb may not be all that bad not to mention there are plenty of 4.000 lb supercars in the world.

Are you talking about moments of inertia?
 
it would definitely help top RPM power output. It would also require a new higher voltage inverter/ drive electronics. Given the dual rear motor setup, I'm guessing the gearing is 2x steeper which will also help in terms of BEMF (lower motor speed at the same road speed) and align with the reduction in torque each half axle can put out..
While I'm not necessarily convinced Tesla will go the 800V route for Roadster v2.0, I note that there now exist IGBT's in the same family that Tesla uses in their existing inverter design, but rated for 800V use.
 
While I'm not necessarily convinced Tesla will go the 800V route for Roadster v2.0, I note that there now exist IGBT's in the same family that Tesla uses in their existing inverter design, but rated for 800V use.

Are you talking the IRF /Infineon 1200V ones without the parallel diode? Looks a bit lossier when on, and 50-100% more switching loss, but feasible. Unless they did some other pack switching weirdness, they would also need to make the AC compressor and HVAC heater 800V compatible, along with the 12V charger/ supply which is also possible. The main hang up might be a lack of 800V automotive wiring and connection systems to support the higher potential.
 
Are you talking the IRF /Infineon 1200V ones without the parallel diode? Looks a bit lossier when on, and 50-100% more switching loss, but feasible. Unless they did some other pack switching weirdness, they would also need to make the AC compressor and HVAC heater 800V compatible, along with the 12V charger/ supply which is also possible. The main hang up might be a lack of 800V automotive wiring and connection systems to support the higher potential.

All solvable. Porche is rumored to be using 800V, and isn't there a charging standard for 800V? I'm not saying it will happen, but that it is possible.
 
Are you taking about mass vs down force? Spoilers/ wings add down force but do not change the mass of the car appreciably. Any additional mass needs to be reacted against for cornering (and tire grip is inversely related to loading). The low CG reduces roll/ weight shift during maneuvers, but lighter is still better.

Are you talking about moments of inertia?

I've been away from here for awile. You guys are right these are legit questions. I should have said vertical and lateral force instead of weight about effect on handling. Weight placed low contributes less to lateral force than weight placed high. Tesla's skidboard platform gives lower cog and weight distrubution than even the most ideal mid-engine ICE layout. So you can't directly compare handling of the Roadster to an ICE sports car of the same weight.
 
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Funny how some fans are happy to buy a $250K car with just $20K in batteries, as they are presuming the 200kWh is needed to get the power to get it to launch this quick. Tesla makes quick slow cells. Every hybrid on the market has quicker cells. Those would not need 200kWh to achieve that launch power. For a small production such as the very costly R3, Tesla could just get some off the shelf cells from Panasonic or anyway and just do that 1.9 dash with easy. And it would not need to be 100kWh even. Such power cells do offer bad energy density usually, but it's improving.

If R3 does NOT have a revolutionary lighter/denser cell tech, it's a total ripoff in my book. And if they slack that hard, don't be surprised to see others offer the same (acceleration and range) for a fraction of the price with off the shelf cells from Samsung or LG.
The legacy car brands are not making 200 kWh Tesla killers yet not because they can't build such quantum tech, it's just they'd need to build too many, and they can't get the cells for that many cars. The GigaFactory was a necessity for steep growth, not just a nice-to-have.

I do wonder what the prototype cars had under the floor. A ~100kWh pack with normalized C rating, or a super light pack from 150-200kWh in homegrown 2170 cells. A proto you can go crazy light with, relatively easily. Once you want to build 1,000 of them, you can run into marginal unit costs that are just too high.

With purchased higher C cells, a 100kWh R3 would be loads lighter than what being presumed to simply have the well known unchanged 2170's, and still offer the punch experienced at the unveiling event.
If truly 200 kWh in standard 2170, it's a bad deal financially and technically a bit uninspired. Where is our 6-8% annual density improvement? In 6 years we only got the "85" -> "90" cell upgrade, and it hurt longuevity with frequent DC charging. The 2170 seems to have brought nothing in terms of density, but it does charge nice and quick for its size.
 
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