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All US Cars capable of FSD will be enabled for one month trial this week

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Good 'ole Cambridge...why am I not surprised with this new announcement..


Regarding no right turn on red... In some states like California, a red right arrow means no right turn on red (although many drivers apparently do not know that). In some other states, a red right arrow does not prohibit right turn on red after stopping.

Did FSDS correctly interpret red right arrows based on which state the car and traffic signal are in?

Also, in some Canadian provinces, flashing green lights exist, but mean different things in different provinces. Did FSDS interpret them correctly?
 
I wonder if the reliability and accuracy of Tesla FSD may vary according to the area in which the car is driving. My own experiences detailed above were in three different areas. One area was downtown and suburban Ottawa; that was the area where FSD was basically unusable for me. The other big experience was along Highway 401/416 between Toronto and Ottawa; that was the area where it functioned ok to some extent, but still disengaged often and required frequent interventions, as described above. The still additional area was downtown Toronto, where the FSD was actually pretty good, albeit my time there was very brief, so I did not get a chance to test it beyond a cursory level at that location.

One other point of clarification: I was using version 12.3.3.
 
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Regarding no right turn on red... In some states like California, a red right arrow means no right turn on red (although many drivers apparently do not know that). In some other states, a red right arrow does not prohibit right turn on red after stopping.

Did FSDS correctly interpret red right arrows based on which state the car and traffic signal are in?

Also, in some Canadian provinces, flashing green lights exist, but mean different things in different provinces. Did FSDS interpret them correctly?

I have seen it turn in many "no turn on red" signed intersections and completely stop at others. It seems to prefer to turn though.
 
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In some states like California, a red right arrow means no right turn on red (although many drivers apparently do not know that). In some other states, a red right arrow does not prohibit right turn on red after stopping.
Wait until you hear about permissive vs restrictive yellow lights, where 8 states have a law where if you're in the intersection at all when the light turns yellow, that's a paddlin'.
Which means that to obey the law in those 8 states, a Tesla on FSD should theoretically absolutely hammer the brakes when the light turns yellow and the math says you won't make it. Then when it crosses a state line, it starts gliding through yellows.

Imagine the customer complaints you'd have to handle around that, or alternately the tickets you could get from some small town cop who realizes they can pull over every FSD car that breaks the law and just soak the manufacturer.

One of the things Tesla gets to completely ignore when FSD is "(supervised)"
 
Wait until you hear about permissive vs restrictive yellow lights, where 8 states have a law where if you're in the intersection at all when the light turns yellow, that's a paddlin'.
Which means that to obey the law in those 8 states, a Tesla on FSD should theoretically absolutely hammer the brakes when the light turns yellow and the math says you won't make it. Then when it crosses a state line, it starts gliding through yellows.

Imagine the customer complaints you'd have to handle around that, or alternately the tickets you could get from some small town cop who realizes they can pull over every FSD car that breaks the law and just soak the manufacturer.

One of the things Tesla gets to completely ignore when FSD is "(supervised)"
Our traffic laws are not ready for ADAS and AVs. Unfortunately our legislators are old, and just can't move at the speed of technology.
 
Our traffic laws are not ready for ADAS and AVs. Unfortunately our legislators are old, and just can't move at the speed of technology.
This old trope is entertaining, but it doesn't help that all the Tech companies told the world that their systems would drive better than humans on our current roads, in combination with human drivers. Humans work fine with our current laws so why can't a "better" computer? It also doesn't help that we were supposed to have tons of actual L4+ cars on the road now if you listen to the tech companies, so tech companies just can't move at the "speed of technology" either. They're way off their timelines so it's kind of over the top to yell at our local lawmakers for being behind the curve.

We also live in a place where these traffic laws are in general, not federal. The idea that OR and WA should go and harmonize all their traffic laws so that it's easier for a future tech company based in TX to make a car that drives between the states doesn't seem like a good use of their time right now, especially if that is an uncertain future or makes driving more complex for human drivers. Even worse, it would probably cost a lot of money as states need to re-do signage, road markings, and traffic lights to change things like a permissive vs restrictive yellow light.
 
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2024.14.5 does not have FSDS v12

It has the new v12 UI update.

Yes it’s confusing.
It was reported that it is in 14.5 on a Model S in the US.

Sawyer Merrit just tweeted that 14.5 is getting the V12 trial to 8.9 users.

And now NotATesla confirms it also:


 
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I guess that answers the question- it takes Tesla 44 days to solve a "minor technical snag"

Sawyer Merrit just tweeted that 14.5 is getting the V12 trial to 8.9 users.
Neither of these tweets confirm that people are ACTUALLY getting the free trial. It looks to me to be an assumption based on the fact that V12 is in the build? The second tweet just says "eligible to receive V12," nothing about a trial. There were people paying for FSD that were on 8.X as well.
 
I guess that answers the question- it takes Tesla 44 days to solve a "minor technical snag"


Neither of these tweets confirm that people are ACTUALLY getting the free trial. It looks to me to be an assumption based on the fact that V12 is in the build? The second tweet just says "eligible to receive V12," nothing about a trial. There were people paying for FSD that were on 8.X as well.
Here you go....

 
This old trope is entertaining, but it doesn't help that all the Tech companies told the world that their systems would drive better than humans on our current roads, in combination with human drivers. Humans work fine with our current laws so why can't a "better" computer? It also doesn't help that we were supposed to have tons of actual L4+ cars on the road now if you listen to the tech companies, so tech companies just can't move at the "speed of technology" either. They're way off their timelines so it's kind of over the top to yell at our local lawmakers for being behind the curve.

We also live in a place where these traffic laws are in general, not federal. The idea that OR and WA should go and harmonize all their traffic laws so that it's easier for a future tech company based in TX to make a car that drives between the states doesn't seem like a good use of their time right now, especially if that is an uncertain future or makes driving more complex for human drivers. Even worse, it would probably cost a lot of money as states need to re-do signage, road markings, and traffic lights to change things like a permissive vs restrictive yellow light.
Glad I could entertain you, Gear.

Humans are geofenced, in a very generalized way. We get comfortable with our local traffic laws, how our intersections work, how our roundabouts work, being able to turn on red, or being in the intersection when the light turns red, etc. If you go on a cross-country road trip, it's very likely you'll run afoul of local traffic laws unintentionally. Hopefully you have an understanding officer that pulls you over and explains the differences, letting you go with a warning.

ADAS and AV systems, right now are generalized as well. Waymo is slowing moving to new cities, and mapping them as they go, learning the local traffic laws and modifying their NNs to match the locale. Tesla is more generalized than Waymo. It seems they base most of the NN training off California traffic laws. This obviously can cause a problem in other states where the traffic laws are significantly different. A growing number of cities are banning right turns on red completely.

At some point we'll have generalized AI, where cameras can read signage and intuit what that sign means with regards to control systems. For now, there's just too many different signs to train on them all in a single NN. A possible solution could be to store a large database in each car of geofenced traffic laws, so that the NN can adjust itself based on location. Or they'll need to have totally different NNs for each locale, trained for that specific place. As it stands, the NN is trained by watching driver videos and seeing how they react. The NN sees a video of someone stopping at a red light, and then going when that light turns green. It also sees that someone comes to a stop at a red light, and then proceeds to turn right, even though the light is still red. That works in some places, and doesn't in others. For example, I have an intersection by my house that has a "No Turn on Red" going one direction, and a "No Turn on Red Arrow" in the opposite direction. The number of humans that get it wrong is impressive. A good percentage of people will sit at the red light and not turn, even though they only have to wait if it's a red arrow, and can turn on red.

It's a tough problem to solve, and we're seeing improvement from companies like Waymo and Tesla in both AV and ADAS functions. Mercedes, and soon BMW, has an L3 system on the roads today. First big problem they'll run into is phone use. How will local law enforcement know that the car is on L3, so they should not pull over the car for the person behind the wheel on their phone? There's talk of some external lighting system to let other drivers know the car is on L3.

Hopefully we'll see improvement from both tech companies and legislators working together. I'm pessimistic for ADAS and AVs if this continues to be the way local traffic laws are signed :)

1715297589083.png
 
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As it stands, the NN is trained by watching driver videos and seeing how they react. The NN sees a video of someone stopping at a red light, and then going when that light turns green. It also sees that someone comes to a stop at a red light, and then proceeds to turn right, even though the light is still red.
Source needed that Tesla is training FSD this way, without labeling or hand scoring these events. Just "show it a video and see how the driver reacts."
This is not the way current NN's are taught. It's the dream, the hope, the fantasy for training a NN, but it doesn't work that way right now.

Your initial argument was that Lawmakers are the ones not yet adapted. How do you suggest we change our laws to make the world better for everyone given this fast moving technology?
 
Source needed that Tesla is training FSD this way, without labeling or hand scoring these events. Just "show it a video and see how the driver reacts."
This is not the way current NN's are taught. It's the dream, the hope, the fantasy for training a NN, but it doesn't work that way right now.

Your initial argument was that Lawmakers are the ones not yet adapted. How do you suggest we change our laws to make the world better for everyone given this fast moving technology?
Something like this:


Now — something important notified by Elon Musk is that using an End-To-End approach, we no longer "tell" the vehicle to stop at red light, or at stop sign, or to verify xyz before changing lanes...

The vehicle figures it out on its own by "imitating" the drivers from the 10M videos they used. So, this means they've been using a dataset of 10M videos, they graded the drivers on each of these, and they trained the machine to imitate what the "good drivers" were doing.

The DOT has guidance they offer, but it's up to the municipalities and states to adopt them. DOT would need to update their guidance, and states would need to adopt them.

Another example, aside from my cell phone usage example, is that currently officers do not stop AVs for violating traffic laws. This is due to an older law that says traffic citations must be given to a driver. Since AVs don't have drivers, they have been instructed to ignore AVs for now. There is potential legislation coming, at least in California, that would update the laws to handle this, but it's going to take time. Legislative bodies need to start thinking about AVs and ADAS systems and be proactive instead of reactive as the technology hits the streets.
 
Something like this:
That article says "Now, let's see what they want to do for 2023/2024:" - That is not proof that Tesla is just feeding unlabeled videos at their NN and having it learn from those with no labeling or scoring applied. Like I said, of course that's the dream.

Another example, aside from my cell phone usage example, is that currently officers do not stop AVs for violating traffic laws. This is due to an older law that says traffic citations must be given to a driver.
Always a problem with absolutes when there are 50 states and 100K cities in the USA....
First, not due to an "older law that citations must be given to a driver." That's just flat out a law in the USA. You have to accuse SOMEONE of a crime. You can't just accuse the vehicle. (well, except in civil forfeiture laws).

But North Carolina has this solved, and does have full legislation around AV's, and cops can cite those vehicles. You're being way to California-centric : https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/BySection/Chapter_20/GS_20-401.pdf
(e) Registered Owner Responsible for Moving Violations. – The person in whose name the fully autonomous vehicle is registered is responsible for a violation of this Chapter that is considered a moving violation, if the violation involves a fully autonomous vehicle.
Also, TX and AZ:
According to the Texas Transportation Code, the owner of a driverless car is “considered the operator” and can be cited for breaking traffic laws “regardless of whether the person is physically present in the vehicle.”
Arizona, another busy site for autonomous vehicles, took similar steps. In revising its traffic laws, Arizona declared the owner of an autonomous vehicle “may be issued a traffic citation or other applicable penalty if the vehicle fails to comply with traffic or motor vehicle laws.”

Would you buy an autonomous vehicle where you were responsible for all violations? Hmm, maybe that isn't what customers were thinking when they paid $15K for FSD that gets updated every few weeks OTA by a team that pivots completely on how they design and train their system every 18 months....
 
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That article says "Now, let's see what they want to do for 2023/2024:" - That is not proof that Tesla is just feeding unlabeled videos at their NN and having it learn from those with no labeling or scoring applied. Like I said, of course that's the dream
I think you misunderstood me. I never said they're feeding random videos to it. Of course they are only feeding good driver videos. Could you imagine feeding bad driver video into the system?

As for the traffic laws, we're both locked in our positions, so we'll end that discussion. Was enjoyable exploring with you though.
 
… Still no v12 supervised FSD on my MYLR 2022.
May 6th.
“Tesla plans to remove the steering wheel nag with the upcoming Full Self-Driving v12.4“
Uhh huh…I see…but I still cannot get supervised FSD v12.x. Mkay. So those of us on 2024.8.9 are just screwed until sometime later in the year or maybe next year. “Sometime next week” what a joke.
 
Of course they are only feeding good driver videos. Could you imagine feeding bad driver video into the system?
Based on what I saw of the one month trial of FSDS, the "good" drivers who trained the system are not that good. FSDS follows far too closely (even in chill mode) to be able to stop for an unmasked stopped vehicle or other object and (less than 20 seconds after I activated it for the first time during the trial) tried to change lanes when the camera display that comes on with the turn signal was showing the red edge blind spot warning.
 
One area in particular where the Tesla FSD failed to perform was in thinking ahead and adjusting to allow other cars entering the freeway to safely merge.
Hell, most human drivers don't do that either...the ones on the highway trundle along fat, dumb, and happy, totally oblivious until someone starts edging into their lane. The ones on the on-ramp plod along at 45 until their lane runs out, and only then do they attempt to move over and suddenly realize "oh, there's someone there already!". After some panicked brake application and swerving, the merging car finally decides to get on the accelerator.

AP and FSD do follow way too close and wait too long to brake.